Erratic idle, won't idle down as quick as it should, dies if picked too fast. Basically, what your saw is doing.
Stihl MS-441 C-M Dies After Idling
- Thread starter MtnMike
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confused8122
ArboristSite Operative
Yup, it happens just often enough for me to to say 'it's new, it shouldn't do that'. But random enough that my odds of my dealer telling me that it runs fine are pretty good.
I work on cars for a living, i like to fix things right the first time. It is rare, but for the odd random problem, that doesn't cause any real problems, I am not afraid to ask a customer to wait till it gets worse, it will be easier to find. This goes along with one of the first steps to fixing anything. Confirm the customer complaint.
I am afraid my dealer won't be able to confirm my complaint. But I know I I have my warranty. Before the first year is up, it will definitely go in for a free check-up. Maybe there is a tsb to fix my saw. Maybe they will say nothing is wrong. At least I will have on record a complaint. So when the problem suddenly gets worse a week out of warranty, I have a leg to stand on.
And I work on older out of warranty cars, all customer pay. If I was doing warranty work, my opinions might be different.
memory
ArboristSite Guru
MtnMike, I used my saw the other day to do some noodling and it never did die. I did let it idle for 20 seconds or so and it didn't die when I picked it up although it does kind of stutter a little.
Although it rarely dies, it does seem to idle rough. I just figure that is the m-tronic doing its thing by always adjusting itself. I could be wrong as this is my first m-tronic saw and my first Stihl so I don't have a lot to judge it against.
Although it rarely dies, it does seem to idle rough. I just figure that is the m-tronic doing its thing by always adjusting itself. I could be wrong as this is my first m-tronic saw and my first Stihl so I don't have a lot to judge it against.
Brad: Thanks for the additional detail. I'll mention this diagnosis to my dealer and ask them to take a closer look at the metering lever and butterfly adjustment. The erratic idle and dying if picked up too fast certainly describes my condition.
Memory: Thanks for the follow up! And I'm in the same boat you are...first M-Tronic, and first Stihl chainsaw (had a Stihl trimmer for 17 years). So I've been kinda of struggling with what I'm experiencing--where does it fall in the realm of "normal behavior."
Memory: Thanks for the follow up! And I'm in the same boat you are...first M-Tronic, and first Stihl chainsaw (had a Stihl trimmer for 17 years). So I've been kinda of struggling with what I'm experiencing--where does it fall in the realm of "normal behavior."
imagineero
Addicted to ArboristSite
I've got 3 of the 441mtronics, they're similar in age/hours and they all get used daily. Only one dies out when you pick it up, the other 2 are fine. I've tried the reset procedure, no difference. They all get fresh mix daily
Yup, my experience too--well, except for the part about having two saws that DO work.
Fuel quality and carb logic don't seem to be a factor. Based on what's been discussed so far, sounds like a mechanical issue. That's definitely what I'm going to check next, er, have the dealer check next. Thanks for the info though. You have a unique body of experience having three of the same saw. Very helpful in a situation like this.
imagineero
Addicted to ArboristSite
I think the metering valve thing sounds like it's the culprit. I haven't tried swapping the carbs out, it hasn't bothered me all that much yet. Kind of annoying though. One of my 044's couple years ago did the same thing and i just lived with it
I keep 3 of each saw, so we take a dozen to site most days. The 441's have 20", 25" and 28" bars, 660's have 36" bars, 346xp's have 16" bars and climbing saws all run 12" bars. Having plenty of saws means not stopping to sharpen during the day which keeps the crew moving, and making money. Having multiples of the same saw makes trouble shooting real easy, and means that you don't have to be in a hurry to get something fixed that day - it can sit on a shelf in the shop until time/parts are available.
I keep 3 of each saw, so we take a dozen to site most days. The 441's have 20", 25" and 28" bars, 660's have 36" bars, 346xp's have 16" bars and climbing saws all run 12" bars. Having plenty of saws means not stopping to sharpen during the day which keeps the crew moving, and making money. Having multiples of the same saw makes trouble shooting real easy, and means that you don't have to be in a hurry to get something fixed that day - it can sit on a shelf in the shop until time/parts are available.
NoBark
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Not a saw but, the behavior of your saw is similar to trolling with an old carbureted 2 stoke outboard for awhile. You're out trolling for halibut then all the suddenly, "Oh ****, the fishery officers are coming! Gotta get out a here!" you give the outboard just a little bit more throttle and she quits. Fuel has puddled too much in the crankcase and now that you're giving it more throttle, it takes in all that puddled fuel in one gulp. Next thing you know, you're being arrested for catching 1 to many halibuts. Some outboards that have the floats adjusted too rich won't even last a few minutes of trolling. I've seen guys bringing in their boats to dock them, and as the boat is slowly idling up to the dock, they hit reverse and the outboard quits. Not sure why its happening to your saw just from picking it up and not giving it any throttle although picking the saw up could cause puddled fuel to get sucked in.
Something I want to add is, does it die if you give it throttle without picking the saw up? I watched your video and was hoping you would try something like. That would debunk my puddling fuel theory if the saw doesn't die from giving it throttle and possibly even eliminating the carb as even being an issue.
Something I want to add is, does it die if you give it throttle without picking the saw up? I watched your video and was hoping you would try something like. That would debunk my puddling fuel theory if the saw doesn't die from giving it throttle and possibly even eliminating the carb as even being an issue.
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NoBark: If I have the presence of mind, and both the saw B&C and I are in a safe orientation (neither of us is in the dirt, for example
), I can blip--or full-on goose--the throttle and the saw keeps running, revs right up and runs great, and I can heft my saw with impunity. This is my current work-around, but it's a pain.Thanks for the thoughts, tho'!
memory
ArboristSite Guru
MtnMike, did you ever take your saw to get it checked out? If so, I am curious as to what you found out.
I was cutting a few logs today and the same thing happened to my saw. I had it sitting on the ground idling for at least 20 seconds, picked it up and it died but started right back up. I tried a few more times to get it to do the same thing again but couldn't. I just wonder if I have the same problem as you and is it serious enough to get it checkded out.
I was cutting a few logs today and the same thing happened to my saw. I had it sitting on the ground idling for at least 20 seconds, picked it up and it died but started right back up. I tried a few more times to get it to do the same thing again but couldn't. I just wonder if I have the same problem as you and is it serious enough to get it checkded out.
Hey Memory,
My saw has been in for service twice for this issue. Dealer one couldn't recreate the problem. Dealer two recreated it and replaced the entire carb under warranty. That, however, still didn't fix the issue. From what others have said in this thread, there's a very very good chance the metering lever is set incorrectly (or is otherwise defective). Odd that I had two carbs with a maladjusted metering lever*, but that's what I'm going to ask the dealer to investigate when the saw goes back for it's third visit, which should be in the next week or so. I'll let you know what comes of the third hospital stay.
* = I wonder if a "carb replacement" is just replacing the carb core, and many (all?) "moving parts" from the old carb are scavenged and put on the new carb core--including the hosed metering lever. Dunno...anybody got a guess?
My saw has been in for service twice for this issue. Dealer one couldn't recreate the problem. Dealer two recreated it and replaced the entire carb under warranty. That, however, still didn't fix the issue. From what others have said in this thread, there's a very very good chance the metering lever is set incorrectly (or is otherwise defective). Odd that I had two carbs with a maladjusted metering lever*, but that's what I'm going to ask the dealer to investigate when the saw goes back for it's third visit, which should be in the next week or so. I'll let you know what comes of the third hospital stay.
* = I wonder if a "carb replacement" is just replacing the carb core, and many (all?) "moving parts" from the old carb are scavenged and put on the new carb core--including the hosed metering lever. Dunno...anybody got a guess?
Working with repair shop here in Ireland,we have had one customer who has just returned his third 441 CM to us.All the above problems with the saws.First one just became unusable.Sent back to stihl who replaced carb.Customer refused to have it so they agreed to take back and gave him new one.This worked for three weeks before starting same symptoms and eventually would not stay running at all.We refused to work on it and sent it back.Same outcome.Third saw given but within ten gallons of fuel refused to start.Damaged piston and barrel we think.our opinion is that the saw was over revving.Stihl wont agree with us but took saw and sent to expert analysist.They have now supplied a fourth saw.Our customer refuses to take it and they are refusing to admit to us that these saws have a problem. Being unable to tune it we are reluctant to sell it either.We dont think the metering is correct for our climate and cant adjust.Stihl remain silent but am sure if nothing was wrong they would not be willing to replace so quick.We sell thirty oer so stihl saws most years,
Stihlman441
Addicted to ArboristSite
Interesting.
I have used,stock,muff modded,ported 441Cs (i think about 8 of them) over the last 3 ish years and never had a problem that you describe above.?
Every Stihl carb I have replaced has come complete. I have no reason to believe that a C-M carb would be any different.
I run a 15" on my 576XPAT at times, who cares if his customers run a 13" bar, get the **** over to Ireland or in my backyard and see what we may be cutting that day.
Gee an M-Tronic with an issue wow. Who could have thought. From reading this post seems they have finally sold 17 of them.
stihlonlynow
ArboristSite Operative
Sounds a lot like what my 562 is doing. The longer you let it idle the worse it gets. I got a couple of questions for ya...
Does the cm have a Zama carb?
How much do you lower the metering lever?
Is there a procedure to time the butterfly's?
Thanks
Does the cm have a Zama carb?
How much do you lower the metering lever?
Is there a procedure to time the butterfly's?
Thanks
Glad to see you don't know much about M-Tronic or AutoTune saws. Lean out test on MT/AT saws every second utilizing rpm as its main indicator, doesn't allow for over revving, regardless of bar length.
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