The 'Made in China' can-o-worms.

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Vise-grips being made in China is not a good example of the counterfeit issue. There are very lax laws concerning intellectual property/patents in China so there is almost no risk to making goods that are a replica of things made elsewhere - sometimes even down to the name and packaging. The end customer may not even be aware that they have been duped until the product is found to be inferior. It's not necessarily a "conspiracy", but the Chinese government is complicit in allowing it to happen.

No, Chinese vise-grips are not an example of a counterfeit issue, and you missed my point completely. They are an example of an "american" company moving manufacturing off shore, lowering manufacturing costs, eliminating jobs, and increasing profits. They are not the same product but people keep buying them, at the same price as when they were made here.

I was acknowledging that counterfeiting was not an insignificant issue, but not as significant as the impact of american companies moving manufacturing to China.
 
Buy Amerikan? Ford Motor Co. Made usa ? well assembled here for the most part, Mustang manual tranny made in china, supposedly as specked by US Ford and German Ford Engineers. ( check it out some problems there that have not hit the main stream yet)

Coroporate Greed or buying public indifference likely about a 50/50 split. Consumers want it less costly, corporate has to bend or not be competitive.

Big splash on price fixing between aisan suppliers for automotive wring harnesses. Net effect consumer is paying more for less

The list goes on and on.
 
The whole corporate, political, economic situation is a fxxxxd up mess.


Aside from that, I've never seen a quality item that was made in China...
 
I bet the chop sticks sold at walmart are made in china !!! :chainsaw:
 
Last edited:
I'm glad Dozer Man finnaly brought it up before I had to.

At the risk of starting a fight... I think the unions are part of the problem with our manufacturing going overseas. The whole "thats not my job" or "don't produce too much, you'll make the rest of us look bad" thing doesn't help the US stay competitive. And by the way, "I'm due for another pay raise because of my seniority, not my productivity" doesn't help either.
 
Yep, you nailed it. The less than 7% of the US workforce that is union is really screwing it up for the rest of the workforce. Everybody knows that union members are nothing but folks who drink and smoke dope on the job with no consequences, not your friends and neighbors who are trying to make a living and feed their families. If we would just give back the 40-hour week, health care, vacations, holidays, and safe working conditions and go back to child labor and company stores we could be competitive with forced labor in China.
 
In my previous job I had the task of sourcing some products from China since we were no longer competitive. Here's my experience:

1) Yes they can make quality but you've got to watch them like hawks! One container is perfect the next one is junk.

2) They dont seem to comprehend the concept of quality control. Their main focus is to compete on price alone. Their
understanding is if its cheap enough, somebody will buy it.

3) If the factory you buy from is busy, they will source out your drawings, mfg etc.. to another factory without telling you. See junk container above

4) They use antiquated equipment (paint line fired by coal and speed the line as fast as it will go to increase output) and since labor is so cheap would rather throw more bodies at a problem than upgrade the equipment.

5) North American companies that are successful with Asian product must send their employees over there to guarantee compliance and quality control.

However, do not fret my youngun's... My old boss used to tell me, " Currently the average Chinese is satisfied with a bowl of rice an ride a bike to work. Soon they will want a steak and a car." This is happening now since the cost of their goods is increasing and some of these jobs are starting to come back here.
 
Yep, you nailed it. The less than 7% of the US workforce that is union is really screwing it up for the rest of the workforce. Everybody knows that union members are nothing but folks who drink and smoke dope on the job with no consequences, not your friends and neighbors who are trying to make a living and feed their families. If we would just give back the 40-hour week, health care, vacations, holidays, and safe working conditions and go back to child labor and company stores we could be competitive with forced labor in China.

You were kinder than I expected.

I'm not saying union folks don't work for their pay. What I am saying is that they often don't produce near what they could if they didn't have the safety net that unions provide. I've done contract work and parts deliverys in the past to different union shops (not all UAW), and had a number of problems. I was even forcably removed from one place because I pointed out a safety concern with a piece of equipment that I wasn't supposed to look at. I guess I stepped on the guys toes that wasn't taking care of what he was supposed to. Then, when a bunch of union members get together for yet better treatment, they go on strike. It is kinda like a kid throwing a temper tantrum.

All I know, is that I wouldn't have employment if i pulled half the crap that I've whitnessed in union shops.
 
Unions, taxes, labor, etc. all aside; a major problem in this country is we have gone a disposable way of life. People (as a generalization) don't want things to repair. If it breaks, they throw it out and buy another. Look at appliances, most people do not even think of calling a repair man if it is out of warranty. The automatic thought is 'Ah, looks like we need a new fridge...' Heck, I even know a guy who buys a new truck when he needs new tires. (at least he only puts about 10k miles on a year) People want fast food in disposable containers = no dishes to clean. People want plastic and paper bags at the grocery store = not having to carry the reusable bags back in (even though there is a discount for doing so). Shoes, throw them away instead of a new sole. And it goes on and on. But that is the way society has become.

But back to the OP. American companies try to go for a repairable quality and price compete with the Chicoms on disposable quality. But it is never going to happen.

For me, I buy on quality; which normally leads to North American/European products. If quality is similar, as long as there is not an extreme price difference, I will buy "Made in the U.S. of A" everytime.
 
My Apologies...

Yep, you nailed it. The less than 7% of the US workforce that is union is really screwing it up for the rest of the workforce. Everybody knows that union members are nothing but folks who drink and smoke dope on the job with no consequences, not your friends and neighbors who are trying to make a living and feed their families. If we would just give back the 40-hour week, health care, vacations, holidays, and safe working conditions and go back to child labor and company stores we could be competitive with forced labor in China.

I knew when I hit the enter button I would offend someone. I'm truely sorry for that, I was on a rant. Union or not, there are plenty of people out there striving for a better life and worried about there jobs. The problem with some unions, from what I've heard from the inside, is the companies take advantage of the true valued worker "doing the best they can" because they were raised with a good work ethic, while protecting the lazy freeloader. That is the difference, for me, I can and will fire the lazy freeloader. :msp_smile::msp_sneaky::msp_smile:
 
Last edited:
From that website:


Top Ten Reasons to Buy American
"Buy American!" might sound like nothing more than a slogan advanced by American manufacturers to sell products made in the USA, but the truth is that there are many reasons to consider buying American-made clothing, American-made toys, and other US-manufactured goods. We've listed just a few of the benefits of buying American below:

Top Ten Reasons to Buy USA Made Products:

10) Foreign labor standards allow unsafe worker conditions in many countries. When you buy American you support not only American manufacturers but also American workers, safe working conditions, and child labor laws.

9) Jobs shipped abroad almost never return. When you buy goods made in the USA, you help keep the American economy growing.

8) US manufacturing processes are much cleaner for the environment than many other countries; many brands sold here are produced in countries using dangerous, heavily polluting processes. When you purchase American-made product, you know that you're helping to keep the world a little cleaner for your children.

7) Many countries have no minimum wage restrictions, or the minimum wage is outrageously low. When you choose products made in the USA, you contribute to the payment of an honest day's wages for an honest day's work.

6) The growing lack of USA ability to manufacture many products is strategically unsound. When you seek out American-made goods, you foster American independence.

5) The huge US trade deficit leads to massive, unsustainable borrowing from other countries. Debt isn't good for you and it isn't good for America.

4) Foreign product safety standards are low. For example, poisonous levels of lead are in tens of millions of toys shipped to the USA. When you buy toys and other goods made in the USA, you can be confident that American consumer protection laws and safety standards are in place to protect your family.

3) Lack of minimum wage, worker safety, or environmental pollution controls in many countries undermines the concept of "fair and free trade". No Western nation can ultimately compete on price with a country willing to massively exploit and pollute its own people. When you buy only American-made products, you insist on a higher standard.

2) Factories and money are shifting to countries not friendly to the USA or democracy. When you avoid imported goods in favor of American-made items, you help ensure that the United States doesn't find its access to vital goods impacted by political conflict.

1) As the US manufacturing ability fades, future generations of US citizens will be unable to find relevant jobs. Buy American and help keep your friends and neighbors-and even yourself-earning a living wage.

Join Made in USA Forever.com in standing up for America.

By Todd Lipscomb, founder of MadeinUSAForever.com.
 
I could complain that maybe "unions" have something to do with the economy being the way it is...but that would probably just be my jealousy of that I'm not related to anyone that works at the local "uaw" GM plant who can get me hired to make $35/hour while smoking dope and drinking on the job while not required to take a mandatory pee test. Whew...long rant (and I'm only jealous of the $35/hr the other stuff just pxxxxs me off)...but probably nothing to do with it and hopefully didn't offend anyone. It's not any one person, or businesses, fault for the shape our economy is in.

I'm in the UAW and wish that I made just half of that $35 per hr but I'm not working directly for the BIG 3. I work for a supplier.

You mention the dope and drinking and both of them have gone on where I work. A few weeks ago 2 tooling guys left with a contractor supervisor that is putting new lines in our plant. They went to a local bar/grill and were gone drinking for 3 hrs. We have doors that you have to badge in and out of but the contractor supervisor let them out and back in on his badge so there wouldn't be a record of them leaving. Well somebody saw them out partying and turned them in so they were caught. They originally got fired and then last week they changed it to 30 days off without pay and they get their job back.

A similar situation happened several years ago but it involved alcohol and drugs. Oh yeah, they got their job back too.
 
There's nothing inherently wrong with unions.

Japan & Germany have managed to have world class, efficient, high exporting industrial economies despite heavy trade unionism.

There is something peculiar to American unions and business dating back to the 19th century that have made our situation particularly contentious and sends us off the rails into needless conflict between unions, management, and employees in one giant dysfunctional circle jerk.

This is especially true on the industrial union side (even within the unions, there's a reason you continue to see AFL and CIO -- despite a nominal marriage the two sides of the house have long had disagreements how to approach things; AFL is generally trade unions that have high skills, minimal supervision, and apprentice programs or research programs -- organizations like IBEW (electrical workers) and IAFF (firefighters). CIO are the industrial labor unions that generally represent low skilled, just another cog in the machine, high supervision, do as you're told we don't have apprentice programs here workers like coal, auto, and textile).

Americans, rightfully, get upset at the unfairness of lazy workers who progress in pay and position by seniority; or the workers like in the last post who aren't fired for drinking on company time.

Not that I'm a big supporter of all things European -- there's a reason they were 25 years ahead of the U.S. in unemployment levels -- but when you look at the German union system which often has an apprentice program even for industrial labor, such boneheads get pruned out when they first come in the door and don't get as many chances to grow into deadwood.
 
I'm glad Dozer Man finnaly brought it up before I had to.

At the risk of starting a fight... I think the unions are part of the problem with our manufacturing going overseas. The whole "thats not my job" or "don't produce too much, you'll make the rest of us look bad" thing doesn't help the US stay competitive. And by the way, "I'm due for another pay raise because of my seniority, not my productivity" doesn't help either.

:popcorn:
 
Many of these points are valid, but I still prefer to "Buy Canadian". Except is has been increasingly difficult to do so since 20 to 30 years ago a lot of our manufacturing moved to a country with lower wages, less health benefits and laxer environmental standards. :hmm3grin2orange:
 
At the company I've worked for for 25years, and now partially own, we design and manufactuers in one plant. I've had experience with some outsource attempts, most of which failed for reasons people have already listed. But this is not a simple issue, it's far more complex than people are making it out to be.

When companies outsource to China it's because they have managers that believe they'll get something for nothing. They don't want to pay for quality, they want it cheap, and so that's what the Chinese give them.

Also, customers want something for nothing, and in these times when the population has taken on way more debt than they can repay, supplying cheap crap at absurdly low prices is part of how we maintain the illusion of prosperity.

The Chinese are graduating scientists and engineers at an incredible pace, while we're producing managers and people who play with money, and all sorts of useless degrees. Likely there won't be enough work either for their scientists and engineers or for our graduates with useless degrees. What happens when you have a lot of disappointed, unemployed young people?

There are many, many industries that simply don't exist in the US anymore, and others that are only in low volume with very little capacity. You want semiconductors or bare circuit boards? It's a complex global supply chain with parts and materials from all over the globe, often with key ingredients from just one or two factories.

The entire global economy and globalization thing is soon finished - it was a consequence of cheap, almost free oil and the economic growth it enabled, but the costs of fossil fuel energy have been rising for years while the volumes are decreasing. As global trade breaks down, many products will simply no longer be available. It takes too long to rebuild the industries we've dismantled, so we cannot just start making the stuff here again tomorrow. Learning to repair and salvage things will be an important skill. People will soon think of buying new stuff and throwing stuff out the way the generation who came through the Great Depression did. The question of where new stuff is made won't be so important when you aren't buying new stuff, even if much more stuff we do get will be made locally - which will mean a much more limited selection.
 
Last edited:
Chinese stuff is unpredictable. Some of it (I'm talking mostly about tools here) is much better quality than you have any right to expect at the price; not great quality, but good value if you consider the price. Other stuff that looks just as good isn't worth the trouble of carrying it home even if it was free. The trouble is that you often can't tell the difference until you try to use it. They sometimes put all their effort into a nice finish and a fancy case, rather than into the product itself. Yes, I buy Chinese crap, but I try to avoid anything that's too expensive to throw away if it's no good. For example, I just shopped for a tractor and didn't look at Jinma or any other Chinese brands. Unfortunately, any brand could have Chinese parts hidden in it, but at least it's not completely Chinese.

The other place I try to avoid Chinese is in critical items that could get me killed if they fail. We all know that the Chinese have no compunction about lying about the specifications of what they sell.


I'm sure most people remember the scandals over adulterated foods and pharmaceuticals from China; not just low quality, but actually poisonous. And because they lie aout the specs, companies that use Chinese ingredients in good faith can end up selling dangerous products. My memory is a bit sketchy, but maybe someone can fill in the details about the pet food scandle a few years ago. If I remember correctly, a Canadian company was making the food, but one of the ingredients had been adulterated by the Chinese to show a false (high ) anslysis for protein . Unfortunately, the ingredient they used (was it melamine?) was toxic and North American pets were dying.
At least that time it wasn't food for human consumption.


The same thing happens with machinery. Remember those "grade 8" bolts made of mild steel? ( How many lines would you like on the heads of these bolts, sir? And would you like the box to say "made in USA" or "made in Germany"?)
 

Latest posts

Back
Top