Torque Disparity Kohler vs. Briggs

[cuttinscott]

Thanks redprospector.

Cuttinscott,

Thanks for the input. In what way do they "eat Kohler's for lunch"? Is that in terms of reliability or performance? The torque difference (17% more on the Kohler) isn't noticeable to a user?


What is the "Kohler school" saying about their larger v-twins like the 36hp? Are they having specific problems?

I guess I don't understand why you say the Command 25hp engines are junk. I've got 2800 hours on my 2003 without any problems, just changed plugs and filters, that's it. Still doesn't smoke or use oil. Heck, when I upgrade I'm hoping to get a few bucks for it. Some kid would probably love to have it on his go-kart. Would you say mine is an anomaly? Seems pretty reliable to me, or are the Vanguards getting alot more hours than that as a rule?

Thanks for the comments, all helpful in the decision-making process.

Stumper63

Kohler uses a different dino than the rest of the world IMO

Schools, Kohler never admit problems just more cures

From the commercial market That I deal with the Kohlers do not last long they will self destruct with heat and dust. Ohh Did I forget to mention that and warranty issues are always the customers fault They will always find a issue of neglect.

We also deal alot with the 3 cyl liquid cooled gas and diesels from B&S and they out live and kubota in the 3cyl super mini series (D600, D722)

Briggs really has a great engine with the Diahatsu - Big Block, 2LC and 3LC engines

PS, Kohler now has a mfg plant in china

Scott

 

[joecool85]

Looks like I was right, B&S is the way to go. I'd trust Scott on this, he knows his stuff.

 

[procutter]

Skip the kohler and go with briggs. Scott is right vanguard engines are owned by toyota.Had a 31hp on a scag 61in turf tiger 10.5 mph wet grass would not phase it that engine rates at 48 lbs torque. When I traded it in it had 1900 hrs on it and used no oil at all. But I did service it at every 40hrs. Ive seen a tiger cub 61in 23hp vanguard out mow a tiger with a 27hp kohler. And I know im talking mowers here but from my experince vangaurd all the way.You can also check out lawn site. forums on the mowing equipment page check the search engine out on the vanguards all positive replys. Hope this helps.

 

[mini14]

the vanguard on my leaf loader is now 10yrs old still runs like new, i have heard nothing put great things about the newer ones, ive asked all my local dealers they all say they would get a vanguard on a mower if it came equiped with it. i know scags had/have them and the 31hpvanguard is the standerd motor on the large ferris zturns. P.S. all the dealers love kohlers cauz they are allways in for repair.

 

[John D]

Vanguards are great engines,Ive got 3 of the v twins,2 16hps,one 18hp,they run like new with over 1300 hrs on them,zero oil usage.I'd go with the 35 Briggs.

 

[Plyscamp]

I installed a 35 HP B/S V Twin on a 252 about 1 year ago. Believe me you will not need more torque on a 252. So far it has been bullet proof (about 400 hours). All of the belts, shafts and clutch are the stock Vermeer pieces and are working fine. You will use a few more belts and clutches than a Kohler unit, but the added production will more than pay for the additional items.

It is at lest twice as productive as a 25 HP Kohler especially when grinding at maximum depth. This unit also has the Multi Tip cutting system which is about 1/3 faster than PRO Teeth.

 

[stumper63]

So it's been two years since this thread was started and now I'm going to make the engine swap this winter.

Anyone have any more experience with either the 35hp Vanguard or 34-40hp Kohler Command Pro engines as far as reliability goes?

Anyone actually done the conversion on a 252 with either the Vanguard or Kohler? I know Plyscamp did it about three years ago. Gordy, if you see this, how's it holding up? Any tips regarding installation? Seems like I'll have to modify the mounting plate for either engine since both are "big blocks" and the specs show the engine bases about 1-1/2" bigger in each direction. Everything else seems like a direct bolt-up.

Thanks for any input.

Stumper63

 

[mini14]

add 2 more trouble free years to my b&s vanguard....only heard good news about the 31 briggs and as allways no matter what brand its going to cost u for repairs....ive never owned a kohler, but ive got many briggs engines on my equipment, got a 30 year old 5hp briggs on a thatcher and have another 1 sitting on a shelf for a replacement, pulled a 25 year old briggs off my log splitter(motor was still running but couldn't stand the burning oil smell anymore)....https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?keyword=NEGH&catname=engines&PAGELEN=20&PageNo=2

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/ProductList.asp?HP=33&Category=Engine


My friend is on his second kohler motor, 25hp........first one windowed the block

 

[Plyscamp]

About 700 hours on the 35 HP Briggs on the 252. Absolutely no nproblems with the engine. We have used up 2 of the 1.25" jack shafts and for that reason we are converting to the 1.5" jackshaft assy.(like I use on the diesel) tomorrow. It also makes all of the bearings standard so if we break one, I only have to carry one bearing for back up one the trucks. Still using the standard Vermeer belt and pulleys on the wheel side and it is working ok. Next project might be a 3 Cylinder Lombardini on my old 252 (4,300 hours) can you imagine 35 HP with 90 Ft. Lbs. of torque on a 252. This one will be a challenge as the engine will be mounted length wise. Keep use informed on what you do with your unit

Plyscamp

 

[stumper63]

Gordy,

Are you going to add a third bearing too like you did on the diesel, or just upsize to 1.5" jackshaft/bearings? Can you send pic's when you get it finished?

Are you still using stock jackshaft belts/pulleys?

Awhile ago you talked about purchasing a diesel grinder from England or somewhere, did you end up getting that?

Stumper63

 

[Plyscamp]

Made the Jackshaft conversion on the 252 today. Still using the standard 2 bearing set up just upsized the shaft and bearings. Interestingly while at the bearing house to buy pulleys, I got one of the older counter guys that had his act together. He was able to find me new 1.5" center bushings to use with the stock Vermeer pulleys on both ends of the shaft, so it only cost me $20.00 plus the shaft to make the conversion. No pulley changes were required.

After six months of negotiations and proding trying to get the Pedator 28 crated, Invoiced and shipped from England I gave up. I may try again in the Spring with a different seller, but they sure move slow. I now understand why it took so long to close that hole in the floor of the Gulf.

 

[derwoodii]

I'm totally happy with the 25hp Kohler, no problems in 2800 hours, but I don't think Kohler has had these larger v-twins but for a couple years or so. .Thanks, Stumper63

Wow 2800 hours well done. I got a mate who re powered his stumpie twice as both Ch25s died before 1000 hours. He says due to hash work dust n vibe etc. My Ch25 on ma 65 bandit chipper died at 1500hours worn out the right hand cylinder bore which it par for the course with these.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

I just had a kohler 30hp on my chipper break its crank and grenade its shortblock with 227 hours on it. It should still be under warrenty, but they are trying to crawl there way out of it. Its not even 2 years old.

Saying that I have a 27hp kohler on my 16 year old chipper that has done well over 2200 hours (hour meter died years ago) and it still runs fine.

 

[derwoodii]

I just had a kohler 30hp on my chipper break its crank and grenade its shortblock with 227 hours on it. It should still be under warrenty, but they are trying to crawl there way out of it. Its not even 2 years old.

Saying that I have a 27hp kohler on my 16 year old chipper that has done well over 2200 hours (hour meter died years ago) and it still runs fine.

A tough but joyful week for ya Timber with ya new baby girl but a broken chipper. Still that chippers small beer for what you gone though to get Briar. Has she still got that new baby smell, wonderful ain't it.

 

[stumper63]

Gordy,

Does your machinist want to make another shaft for me? How much did it cost ya? I bet there may be a few more of us on this site that would be interested.

Was there plenty of room to mount the 1.5" bearings? If I remember right the bearing housings are about 1/2" longer than the 1.25" bearings.

I've got a friend up here who is a machinist, last I talked to him it sounded like about $125 or so.

Do you have the brand and part # of those bushings? Maybe McGuire bearing can get me some up here.

Stumper63

 

[Plyscamp]

Stumper 63

The shaft was a left over from my old 252 prior to putting the diesel on it, so I did not have to get one made. $125.00 sounds about right on the shaft make sure they use 4130 steel.

The 1.5" beearings are a little longer and reduce the range of adjustment slightly, but not enough to be a problem.

The bushing for the engine side is a Dodge brand part # 121147. The bushing for the wheel side I had left over from the Kohler to Diesel conversion and I am not sure of that part #. Take the pulley with you on the wheel side and they should be able to match a bushing with no problem.

Gordy

 

[NCgrinder]

Plyscamp: What clutch are you you using on the 35Briggs/252 conversion
Make/model number ?


Stan

 

[stumper63]

NCgrinder:

Last i heard from Gordy he was using factory 252 clutch, hadn't been able to find a larger one that would fit. I was curious if the clutch from a 352 with the 35hp Briggs 3 cyl might fit. I'm sure it would handle the load better. My manual says the 252 clutch is 220 ft/lbs. Maybe someone here with the 352 can look in their parts manual and see what the specs are on the 352 clutch? Maybe next time at Vermeer the parts guy can pull the two out and see how similar they are.

Stumper63

 

[Plyscamp]

NCgrinder

We use the standard 252 clutch and its holding up pretty well. Adding some holes to the clutch cover helps. Heat is not a good thing on the Agura Clutches, so the more air flow you can create over the clutch the better. I have not looked at the 352 clutch next to the 252 clutch but my Son has and tells me there not interchangeable. Again I have not made the comparisson.

Gordy

 

[NCgrinder]

Stumper63: Thanks for the info
Plyscamp: So the stock 252 clutch fits right onto the 35 Briggs?
Who makes the clutch that Vermeer uses on the 252 ? any chance of finding out the model # ?
Whats a ballpark price on a stock 252 clutch from Vermeer ?

I have approx. 2000 hrs on my 252/25 Kohler and the clutch seems to hold fine ...I will install a new clutch when I repower,though....I'm always careful to bring throttle back to idle before engaging clutch