Trailer brakes question??

[Taxmantoo]

a true proportional brake controller is best.

prodigy while being an excellent controller is still inertia controlled. I find it strange prodigy's brochures claim it's a proportional controller.

only aware of two types of proportional controllers.

first is a hydraulic controller based upon feedback from sensor teed into hydraulic lines. several mfg offer hydraulic controllers... a PITA to install, typically $500+

second type of proportional controller uses brake pedal linkage movement to give feedback to sensor. (Ultima $120, not currently available) if your hydraulic brakes ever should go out while pulling a trailer. Ultima would still work.

Non proportional systems just plain suck. They either apply the brakes a set amount when you trip the switch, or they start braking lightly and increase current to the brakes the longer you keep the brakes on. A friend of mine spent way too much money on the latter when he put a gooseneck hitch in his F250. I hate driving that thing, and I could have gotten him a Prodigy for less than he spent on the controller.

A proportional controller tries to guess how hard you are stopping and activates the trailer brakes to match. This guess can be based on hydraulic pressure, inertia, or pedal travel. Of the three, pedal travel is the least useful.
To claim a pedal travel system (Jordan) is proportional and an inertial system (Prodigy) is not would be rather silly.

 

[046]

now how would you know pedal travel brake controller is least useful? have you used one?

by the way..a true proportional controller doesn't guess how much brakes to apply to trailer. it applies brakes on trailer proportional to how hard you are stepping on your brake pedal. not how hard the brain box guesses both vehicle/trailer combo should be stopping.

where this makes the biggest difference is pulling large loads. your tow vehicle's brakes must do ALL the initial braking for both vehicle and loaded trailer before inertia brakes can start working. when towing lighter loads ... this small difference make not mean much. but when towing 20k+lb loads... you can easily overheat your brakes to point of brake fade. ask me how I know :taped:

do a search on RV forums for people that tried both Jordan and prodigy. they go back to Jordan Ultima. don't get me wrong, of the inertia brake controllers, prodigy is the best one and does a good job for most folks. Just that Jordan does a better job on my truck. this is a moot point for most... as Jordan is out of production.

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"The problem with an inertial controller is that it measures the rate of deceleration of the truck to determine how much braking to call for from the trailer brakes. Now, if you're in a situation (heavy rain, ice, snow, etc.) where the truck can't generate sufficient deceleration.......well, hopefully, you get the picture. You can wind up like me with a locked brake on the truck (sticking caliper) and no trailer braking whatsoever. Not recommended.

So, yes, it's worth $20 (or $200) more money to me to have a brake controller that applies trailer brakes in direct proportion to what I do with my right foot on the truck's brake pedal. The Brakesmart and Jordan do this. The others mentioned don't."
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here's a pic of a prodigy brake controller on the truck I purchased today. a 96 12v cummins turbo diesel with 67k miles. super clean! A 4x4 stick in a 3/4 ton 12v club cab w/super low miles is super hard to find. could have purchased a 2004 CTD with what $$$ I paid.

anyways... one of the first things I'm going to do is yank out that Prodigy controller and install my Jordan Ultima controller.

A proportional controller tries to guess how hard you are stopping and activates the trailer brakes to match. This guess can be based on hydraulic pressure, inertia, or pedal travel. Of the three, pedal travel is the least useful.
To claim a pedal travel system (Jordan) is proportional and an inertial system (Prodigy) is not would be rather silly.

 

[gink595]

I have the same electric controller in my truck that I bought ten years ago a Tekonsha Voyager. It took me a few times to fully understand how it operated, and like JohnD said, you will flat spot your tires if you don't adjust it I'd buy another one like it it has never failed me, the unit. But I have had a broken feed wire under the truck that put it out if order.

Here is a couple of items I depend on the Brake controller working. I have pulled the JD without trailer brakes and it was plain horrifying.

 

[Crofter]

Best bet, if you are going 1 axle is to put them on the rear.

Generally, when people hitch up the tounge is higher than the rear of the trailer. That puts more weight on the rear axle than the front.

That should not be the case if the equalizer linkage is working. Now if it is a homemade with two or more non equalized suspensions it could happen or if the tongue height is so out of whack that the linkage goes to the limit. In that case you will potentially overload the rear axle.

What I have heard is that if all axles are not braked there is a tendency to have brake induced axle hop from the equalizing linkage going into occilation.

From the posts it looks like there is a fair bit of dinking around to get a good balanced effective trailer braking setup, which has been my experience. In any case it would have to be a very bad setup to be worse than no brakes at all on the trailer.

 

[CaseyForrest]

The P3 must be an older or a cheaper design. The Prodigy Part No. 90185 is Tekonsha's top-of-the line controller. It does proportional braking. There is no adjustment for level on it and no provision for level adj on it. NADA. No need for it. The motion detector technology incorporated in it makes manual level setting obsolete. Set the gain for optimal braking on level ground and it automatically compensates for uphill and downhill driving. Set it and forget it! The Primus is self-leveling as well, but it isn't as intelligent as the Prodigy.

Don't take my word for it, Check Tekonsha's website. Read the print and watch the video.
http://www.tekonsha.com/product/details.asp?ProdID=90185&cat=1435

I wont take your word for it.

And take your own advice, read the print...

Features:
Prodigy® is the most intelligent brake control. This powerful control features new motion sensor technology similar to what is used in the aerospace industry. With Prodigy® no manual level adjustment is necessary, it adjusts itself to varying terrains as you drive. It is equipped with a sensor that detects the tow vehicle's rate of deceleration, applies proportional braking to the trailer and features an exclusive "BoostSM" feature that gives users the ability to apply more initial trailer braking power (especially when towing heavier trailers). For backing into tough spots this is the only inertia control that works proportionally in reverse. A digital display depicts voltage delivery to the trailer during braking and displays continual diagnostics check for proper connection, shorted magnet condition, open ground and much more. A unique pocket mount allows for flexible mounting options (standard mounting bracket included). Prodigy® includes a 3 ft. pigtail connector for ease of connection when using a vehicle's brake control wire harness. A quick and easy disconnect feature allows users to remove the control when not in use and store in a supplied protective pouch. Prodigy® meets National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) regulations regarding tow vehicle/trailer light activation. It also offers a limited lifetime warranty (some conditions apply).

It does not adjust itself based on the incline of the vehicle, other than to automatically adjust the level. This has no effect on how much braking effort you get from the controller.

And you obviously didnt look at the link you put up, right on it is the P3....

http://www.tekonsha.com/video/runvideo.asp?video1=p3-intro.flv

Id say a step above the Prodigy, and not an older design.

 

[CaseyForrest]

That should not be the case if the equalizer linkage is working. Now if it is a homemade with two or more non equalized suspensions it could happen or if the tongue height is so out of whack that the linkage goes to the limit. In that case you will potentially overload the rear axle.

What I have heard is that if all axles are not braked there is a tendency to have brake induced axle hop from the equalizing linkage going into occilation.

From the posts it looks like there is a fair bit of dinking around to get a good balanced effective trailer braking setup, which has been my experience. In any case it would have to be a very bad setup to be worse than no brakes at all on the trailer.

I thought this would be the case too, but its not.

If it had a walking bar type suspension, both axles would carry the same weight no matter the tilt of the trailer. But since the front axle leaf is hard mounted to a hanger, anytime you raise the level of the tongue, you take weight off the front axle.

Go give it a try...jack your tandem axle trailer up past level so the front is higher and see if you can lift the tongue by hand....now take the weight off the jack, so the front is lower and see if you can lift it by hand.

With mine, that I built here...http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=44000&highlight=trailer

I can take all the weight off the jack, fold it up so the tongue is hanging and lift it up almost 10". If I jack the tongue up to the same height, I cant lift it at all.

Also...Ive changed front axle tires using the jack to lift the front axle off the ground. That means all the weight is on the rear axle. Which means as the tongue goes past level towards being higher than the rear, the rear axle carries more weight.

I have noticed if I hit the manual override hard, it will tilt the equalizer towards the front of the trailer before the wheels lock up. However, the smoothness of the P3 controller, this never happens under normal or even hard braking conditions. Ive got it set at level 6.5 with the brakes freshly adjusted.

 

[CaseyForrest]

a true proportional brake controller is best.

prodigy while being an excellent controller is still inertia controlled. I find it strange prodigy's brochures claim it's a proportional controller.

only aware of two types of proportional controllers.

first is a hydraulic controller based upon feedback from sensor teed into hydraulic lines. several mfg offer hydraulic controllers... a PITA to install, typically $500+

second type of proportional controller uses brake pedal linkage movement to give feedback to sensor. (Ultima $120, not currently available) if your hydraulic brakes ever should go out while pulling a trailer. Ultima would still work.

with proportional controllers... trailer braking feedback is based completely on how hard you step on brake pedal. vs inertial controllers requires tow vehicles brakes to slow down trailer and tow vehicle before trailer brakes starts to work.

with proportional controllers it's totally possible to adjust feedback to where trailers brakes first. this allows tow vehicle's brakes to remain cool.

this is only critical when towing heavier loads. when you are towing a 20k+ lb loaded trailer with a Cummins truck. the last thing you want is brake fade. Really fortunate to have a Ultima controller on my Cummins truck. Too bad Ultima controllers are not back in production yet.

here's a pic showing how it works.

Ive never seen a controller like that. Makes sense.

My P3 hasnt failed me yet. I dont really tow that much, but when I do the trailer is usually fully loaded.

 

[046]

do a search for Jordan Controller... they've got cult status among RV'ers. ask anyone that's used both Prodigy and Jordan. they will tell you Jordan is better everytime.

works exactly like Brakesmart which is a hydraulic proportional controller. a pita to install because you've got to crack your hydraulic lines to tee in a sensor. end result is stepping on your brake pedal results in trailers brakes applying proportional to amount of brakes applied in tow vehicle. this means if you feather your brakes ... trailer brakes is feathered. put your brakes on hard... trailer brakes goes on hard.

Jordan Ultima controllers works exactly the same. difference is how braking feedback is achieved. Jordan uses a cable that runs from control box to brake pedal. if one follows instructions .. not a big deal to install. it's not necessary to generate braking forces to activate trailer brakes.

vs inertia brake controller MUST sense a braking motion before trailer brakes are applied. Prodigy's brain makes an educated guess at how much force should be applied. Prodigy is hands down the best of the inertia controllers. what I don't understand is how prodigy can claim to be a proportional controller. when in fact it takes braking inertia to activate trailer brakes first.

an yes... there is a HUGE difference between the two when towing extremely heavy loads.

 

[CaseyForrest]

do a search for Jordan Controller... they've got cult status among RV'ers. ask anyone that's used both Prodigy and Jordan. they will tell you Jordan is better everytime.

works exactly like Brakesmart which is a hydraulic proportional controller. a pita to install because you've got to crack your hydraulic lines to tee in a sensor. end result is stepping on your brake pedal results in trailers brakes applying proportional to amount of brakes applied in tow vehicle. this means if you feather your brakes ... trailer brakes is feathered. put your brakes on hard... trailer brakes goes on hard.

Jordan Ultima controllers works exactly the same. difference is how braking feedback is achieved. Jordan uses a cable that runs from control box to brake pedal. if one follows instructions .. not a big deal to install. it's not necessary to generate braking forces to activate trailer brakes.

vs inertia brake controller MUST sense a braking motion before trailer brakes are applied. Prodigy's brain makes an educated guess at how much force should be applied. Prodigy is hands down the best of the inertia controllers. what I don't understand is how prodigy can claim to be a proportional controller. when in fact it takes braking inertia to activate trailer brakes first.

an yes... there is a HUGE difference between the two when towing extremely heavy loads.

My P3 will apply anywhere between .3 and 1.5 volts to the trailer by me just stepping on the pedal. Everything after that is proportional.

The sensor in it is very sensitive.

 

[046]

not familiar with new P3... how many amps not volts does P3 deliver to brakes upon stepping on pedal?

how does P3 activate trailer braking? via a inertia sensor? or via a mechanical or hydraulic sensor?

what I'm referring to a proportional controller is one that apply trailer brakes proportional to brake pedal pressure. an inertia triggered controller can only be activated after braking motion has been started by tow vehicle's brakes.

this is not a true proportional controller. which can be set to have trailer brakes slow the tow vehicle. or any other setting desired by tow driver.

seems what P3 has done is make controller's response proportional to tow vehicle's braking response. which again is triggered by inertia.

a true proportional controller doesn't rely on anything except brake pedal pressure. step on the brakes and it works. even when dead stopped or flying down the road.

My P3 will apply anywhere between .3 and 1.5 volts to the trailer by me just stepping on the pedal. Everything after that is proportional.

The sensor in it is very sensitive.

 

[CaseyForrest]

not familiar with new P3... how many amps not volts does P3 deliver to brakes upon stepping on pedal?

how does P3 activate trailer braking? via a inertia sensor? or via a mechanical or hydraulic sensor?

what I'm referring to a proportional controller is one that apply trailer brakes proportional to brake pedal pressure. an inertia triggered controller can only be activated after braking motion has been started by tow vehicle's brakes.

this is not a true proportional controller. which can be set to have trailer brakes slow the tow vehicle. or any other setting desired by tow driver.

seems what P3 has done is make controller's response proportional to tow vehicle's braking response. which again is triggered by inertia.

a true proportional controller doesn't rely on anything except brake pedal pressure. step on the brakes and it works. even when dead stopped or flying down the road.

Yes, "technically" its an inertia controller.

However, the more deceleration it senses the more voltage it applies to the trailer. as the deceleration decreases, so does the voltage it sends to the trailer. Proportional, but done electrically. Its extremely smooth as well. No jerking, or getting that "pop" when you take your foot off the pedal after a hard stop.

Id have to switch it over to the amp gauge and watch it...so Im not sure on that.

I know what you are saying about a true proportional controller.

 

[PasoRoblesJimmy]

Even with splitting hairs and trying to slice and dice the minute variations between specific models, the current generation of electronic brake controllers is light years ahead of previous generations. Most of the improvement in them can be attributed to improved sensors, the increasing power of microprocessors and improved software. I suspect the differences are mainly in user interface.

My first trailer brake controller was a Kelsey-Hayes connected directly to the hydraulic brake lines in my 1968 Dodge D200. It braked my trailers smoothly and was a total no-worry device.

My first electronic brake controller was a heavy monster-sized, circa 1985, Tekonsha. My second electronic brake controller was a Voyager which was 1/4 the size of the original Tekonsha. The Voyager braked much smoother than my original Tekonsha, but it was still somewhat Herky Jerky.

Today's generation of Tekonsha brake controllers brake much more smoothly than previous models. They are worry-free and transparent to their users.

 

[NYH1]

Here are a few pic's of my trailer. My father built the log splitter in the one pic!

My best helper and I (7 year old son, 5 at the time) unloading the truck and trailer!

 

[046]

just finished yanking out Prodigy and installing my trusty Jordan Ultima controller in my 96 Cummin Turbo Diesel 5sp 4x4 CC with 67k miles.

digital display shows amps delivered to trailer brakes. a set of healthy tandem axles brakes should draw aprox. 12-15amps locked up. if trailer brakes does draw correct amps, then there's usually a ground issue.

 

[PasoRoblesJimmy]

I loved my former Kelsey-Hayes hydraulic-electric brake controller. Unfortunately, we can't tap into the hydraulic brake lines on the newer tow vehicles.

I read a comment where an RV user replaced a Tekonsha Prodigy with a P3. He didn't notice any difference.

 

[046]

you can always tap into hydraulic lines. simply cut tube and flare ends. sensor has almost zero movement so will not affect braking.

but it's a pita to do... especially with newer systems with ABS brakes, which may have special bleeding procedures beyond most shade tree mechanics. unless you have the new injection bleeder tool.

I loved my former Kelsey-Hayes hydraulic-electric brake controller. Unfortunately, we can't tap into the hydraulic brake lines on the newer tow vehicles.

I read a comment where an RV user replaced a Tekonsha Prodigy with a P3. He didn't notice any difference.

 

[PasoRoblesJimmy]

you can always tap into hydraulic lines. simply cut tube and flare ends. sensor has almost zero movement so will not affect braking.

but it's a pita to do... especially with newer systems with ABS brakes, which may have special bleeding procedures beyond most shade tree mechanics. unless you have the new injection bleeder tool.

Unfortunately, I tossed the Kelsey-Hayes years ago while cleaning clutter from my garage.

Are you referring to pressure brake bleeders similar to the following? Speedvision has also shown an alternate type of pressure bleeder that injects fresh brake fluid in the opposite direction. (i.e., directly into the wheel cylinders). Since air bubbles rise, the theory is that brake fluid injected into wheel cylinders, instead of the master cylinder, will be more efficient at removing the trapped air.

Motive Products 0250
Bleed your brakes by yourself.
These Motive Products Power Bleeder kits use pressurized brake fluid to force air and old fluid out of your brake lines. Just pour clean fluid into the pressure tank, attach the Power Bleeder cap to your fluid reservoir, and pressurize the system using the built-in hand pump and pressure gauge. The kits are available for Ford 2-prong caps, Ford 3-prong caps, hydraulic clutch fluid reservoirs, GM applications with flat fluid covers, and thread-on master cylinder caps.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MVP-0250&FROM=MG

 

[046]

bummer ... should have kept the old hydraulic controller.

here's a picture of my Pheonix injector ... allows cross bleeding from point to point.
and yes.. I'm a bonified tool nut.

Unfortunately, I tossed the Kelsey-Hayes years ago while cleaning clutter from my garage.

Are you referring to pressure brake bleeders similar to the following? Speedvision has also shown an alternate type of pressure bleeder that injects fresh brake fluid in the opposite direction. (i.e., directly into the wheel cylinders). Since air bubbles rise, the theory is that brake fluid injected into wheel cylinders, instead of the master cylinder, will be more efficient at removing the trapped air.

 

[CaseyForrest]

Even with splitting hairs and trying to slice and dice the minute variations between specific models, the current generation of electronic brake controllers is light years ahead of previous generations. Most of the improvement in them can be attributed to improved sensors, the increasing power of microprocessors and improved software. I suspect the differences are mainly in user interface.

My first trailer brake controller was a Kelsey-Hayes connected directly to the hydraulic brake lines in my 1968 Dodge D200. It braked my trailers smoothly and was a total no-worry device.

My first electronic brake controller was a heavy monster-sized, circa 1985, Tekonsha. My second electronic brake controller was a Voyager which was 1/4 the size of the original Tekonsha. The Voyager braked much smoother than my original Tekonsha, but it was still somewhat Herky Jerky.

Today's generation of Tekonsha brake controllers brake much more smoothly than previous models. They are worry-free and transparent to their users.

Agreed.

I just didnt want anyone to think their brake controller could sense hills and adjust trailer braking accordingly. Thats not true and would lead to a false sense of security.

 

[PasoRoblesJimmy]

bummer ... should have kept the old hydraulic controller.

here's a picture of my Pheonix injector ... allows cross bleeding from point to point.
and yes.. I'm a bonified tool nut.

Yup! I located the Phoenix reverse fluid injector on the web. There are 3 models: The high end Max Pro, the middle price V-12-205 and the low price V-12-DIY. Any of the 3 could work for the average backyard mechanic. I'm leaning towards the V-12-205 kit in the middle.
http://www.brakebleeder.com