Trajectile Dysfunction

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I hate to give advice on a forum with alot of Pro loggers, plus different situations can void advice. What I do for really bad head leaners is this, it takes a little practice but here it goes:

Skip the face cut completely, plunge straight in and cut to the front, cutting the heart completely out, leaving a small amount of holding wood (like an inch or till the weight of the tree starts tightening on your bar), then cut back leaving a trigger on the back side, bring your saw out and pop the trigger. The snip on the front (if done right) will usually tear down the stump.

Caution: you must be right with the lean. If you leave too much on the front...it can chair a bit.

disclaimer...just my .02 cents :msp_w00t:

Thanks for the reply, you get paid to fall trees, so in my book you are a pro faller! It may just be my low testosterone talking, but I don't think I'd have the balls for that. I am not doubting that you make it work, and I'd love to see a video. Just not with your helmet cam, cause it makes me feel like puking! Thanks again TC
 
Simply cutting the center of the hinge wood out from the face is an excellent way to prevent barberchair. A tree greatly looses its ability to slab once a portion of the hinge is severe. You may pull wood though..
 
The tendency to chase the cuts to make them match can lead to having too much removed for the facecut. When you think you have cut enough, stop and whittle out the excess or knock it out. Going too far can lead to problems, a back leaner for sure will make it tough.
 
The tendency to chase the cuts to make them match can lead to having too much removed for the facecut. When you think you have cut enough, stop and whittle out the excess or knock it out. Going too far can lead to problems, a back leaner for sure will make it tough.

Thanks Randy, that's exactly where I went wrong. I started the top cut of my face at too shallow an angle and instead of stopping at where the bottom cut ended and boring out the face, I "chased" the bad top cut with the bottom until they met. I saw that I was going too far, but didn't know how to quit. A gust from the north could have ruined me. From now on, I'll follow all the good advice to start smaller with the face and make it deeper and "opener" if needed. I was also thinking with airfares being what they are, it would be a lot cheaper and easier for me to just set myself on fire and save you a trip!
Thanks again
 
This is what I do sometimes. Put in your gunned horizontal cut of your undercut in. Somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2 the diameter of the tree. Then set the dawgs of the saw at the end of the horizontal cut pointed up at the angle you want the sloping part of your undercut to be. Start the cut and check the off side to see if it is going to line up. Error on it being short and leaving a dutchman, then go back and clean it up. This will always get you lined up on one side.:msp_wink:
 
This is what I do sometimes. Put in your gunned horizontal cut of your undercut in. Somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2 the diameter of the tree. Then set the dawgs of the saw at the end of the horizontal cut pointed up at the angle you want the sloping part of your undercut to be. Start the cut and check the off side to see if it is going to line up. Error on it being short and leaving a dutchman, then go back and clean it up. This will always get you lined up on one side.:msp_wink:
Great advice, I will definitely try this on the next one, thanks!

That dull saw made that video tough to watch.

In defense of the chain, it was fresh out of the box 75JGX135. The issue was more with the operator than the chain or saw. I have blamed the slow cutting on the bendy bar, but it's a poor carpenter that blames his tools!
 
Great advice, I will definitely try this on the next one, thanks!



In defense of the chain, it was fresh out of the box 75JGX135. The issue was more with the operator than the chain or saw. I have blamed the slow cutting on the bendy bar, but it's a poor carpenter that blames his tools!

Well I'm not totally setting you on fire.
I wasn't there, I don't know what you really went thru. I gotta give props for even posting an eight minute video. Iturned out fine so no harm
 
Over cutting is a common error, the other end of the spectrum, where they skin off the bark and call it good, is just as common.
Run through your mind what you want to do, take your time, correct if you need to.
My cousin Kev had great technical skills, his stumps were nearly always perfect, but he couldn't read a tree worth a damn.
 
Well I'm not totally setting you on fire.
I wasn't there, I don't know what you really went thru. I gotta give props for even posting an eight minute video. Iturned out fine so no harm

I was so tempted to bury this video, cause it was kinda (very) ugly, and post a video of a tree I did better, but I figured "what would I learn from that." Also shooting a video is a pain in the ass. I am in awe of all you guy's abilities, and welcome any advice you can give. Feel free to set me on fire, I am not worthy of carrying you guy's jocks when it comes to falling trees, and I want to get a little bit better. I have no plans to move to oregon and be a logger, mostly 'cause I'm old, have 4 kids, and a no-nonsense wife! In all honesty, I've learned more helpful tips from this forum today than I did with the studying and reading I was doing in the past six months. I sincerely thank all of you for the education, and your niceness. I'm an undersized defenseman, so I can take some punishment, and gladly will do so to be a safer and smarter tree-cutter-downer! Thanks again for all your help, and I'm sorry to monopolize your forum, it's just the only one which isn't kinda silly
 
Over cutting is a common error, the other end of the spectrum, where they skin off the bark and call it good, is just as common.
Run through your mind what you want to do, take your time, correct if you need to.
My cousin Kev had great technical skills, his stumps were nearly always perfect, but he couldn't read a tree worth a damn.

Thanks Randy,
I'm currently doused in kerosene and looking for a match! I have the rare combination of poor technical skills and inability to read trees. Or even books for that matter. Thanks again
 
Reading em takes a little experience... using yer axe handle is a good way to figure the lean, hold the head in the palm of your hand and eyeball the handle inline with the tree, which way the axe wants to fall it is the way the tree wants to fall, assuming that branches arn't loading it one way or the other... some guys use a plumb bob to do the same thing but I can't hold still long enough to keep the damn thing from swinging all over the place...

size up the tree from several different sides as well, where possible, really steep ground limits your options as to which side you can stand on


P.S. since when is axe spelled ax?
 
Thanks Randy,
I'm currently doused in kerosene and looking for a match! I have the rare combination of poor technical skills and inability to read trees. Or even books for that matter. Thanks again

Lmfao quit bieng your worst critic pal I been cutting 30 something years and sometimes my cuts too deep. There are no supermen there are just more experienced so don't sweat the small stuff, learn,perform and look up. I still learn stuff new always will you at least read ,asked questions and wear your hard hat your not a punk, if you were closer I would cut with u and believe me I won't with many.
 
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Madhatte: Thanks for all the time you took with this. I'm forced to admit what you are saying is a little over my head. From a thinking/planning standpoint, how would you have approached this tree to get it to do what you want, safely, and not by accident?

Well, first, "steep and deep" is a time-honored method that certain parties hereabouts heartily recommend (hat tip to RandyMac). TOO steep is sort of a GOL thing and too deep is an easy way to lose a tree early. The trick is to get the face right. It's better to go too shallow, and fix it, than too deep, and live with it. Pretty much everybody has adjusted a face or two to make things work. Sure, sometimes you'll get it right the first time, but having the mental flexibility to work with what you have is pretty important. A very good habit to get into is to slap a wedge in the backcut as soon as there's room behind the bar. This gives you some assurance that the tree can't set back on your bar, and also gives you a place to apply force to use leverage. I try to do this even if I don't intend to pound the wedge. It just gives me more options, plus, if the wedge falls out, I know the tree is tipping, even if I happen to be looking somewhere else at the moment. SO: for this tree, a good plan would have been to make a face cut deep enough that it would take little force to wedge the top past the center of gravity, but shallow enough to allow wedging between the bar and the hingewood. With 8" wedges, 35-40% would have been OK, I think.

The comments above about using a plumb to gauge the lean are spot-on -- that tree was much better balanced than the butt alone let on. Sometimes it helps to look at it from several angles and come up with several plans so that you can reject the ones that don't work. If you only have one plan, and it fails, well, that's just a failure. More options are always good. Since you were mostly concerned with avoiding the fenceline, there were probably several other lays that would have also achieved that goal. Think them all through, as a mental exercise, to make sure the one you're going to follow is the best one. I often change my plan based on seeing something I didn't expect which I never would have seen had I not taken the time to look.

Another thing to consider, which I haven't seen mentioned yet, is assessing the soundness of the tree. It was beetle-killed, yes? You'll want to have a look at it for compromised structure, then. Look for conks up the length of the bole -- they will certainly indicate rot of some kind. Tap it around the base with a hammer or the poll of an axe. Listen for the sound to change when you strike the wood. If there are spots where it sounds different, it's likely that the wood there IS different. Duller sounds often indicate rot, while more musical tones can indicate sap accumulation, which suggests healed scarring or other structural irregularities. A sound, uniform tree should make about the same noise pretty much wherever you tap it. It's often to your benefit to pull the face from identified rotten places and to use the sounder wood for holding. This, too, could change your plan. Remember that the strongest wood is usually near the outside of the log cylinder -- the sapwood -- and can be expected to break last. If you are worried about barber-chair, it's often to your advantage to nip the corners of the hingewood for that reason -- if the most likely wood to hold on isn't there to slab, slabbing won't occur.
 
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Easy there tiger, its fine.

I couldn't find matches, so no worries!

Lmfao quit bieng your worst critic pal I been cutting 30 something years and sometimes my cuts too deep. There are no supermen there are just more experienced so don't sweat the small stuff, learn,perform and look up. I still learn stuff new always will you at least read ,asked questions and wear your hard hat your not a punk, if you were closer I would cut with u and believe me I won't with many.

Rope,
I've seen pictures of the crazy #### you handle so that statement is truly an honor. I absolutely hate it when some guy comes to ask my advice at work and he has an "you may know more than me about this unimportant thing, but I am smarter than you and a more important person" attitude. When I give good careful advice on things I really know about, these guys typically say I'm wrong and they read different on the internet or their uncle JimBob does it totally different. Posting that ugly video was not at all a "look at me, look at me" thing, but a give a guy who's honestly trying to be a better "faller" some help. You guys have come through for me in a big way, and if I weren't cursed by such manly manliness, I'd probably be all sappy about it.
Thanks again
 
Madhatte. Thank you very much. That was one of the best advice posts I have ever read on AS. Thanks for keeping it simple, and I'll try to incorporate it into my cutting. I ran out of rep during this thread, but I hope somebody hits you for me, that was awesome
 
Here's what I was talking about regarding the bar and chain. I video'd one bucking cut near the base of the stem. It's still about 40" across here. The bar and chain are the same. You can tell it's me, cause I miss the wedge 8 times in a row with the sledge! But the saw moves the 42" bar, buried through this wood in short order when cutting vertically, but horizontally it bogs down quickly. I have been blaming the bar bending and making a curved cut which binds, it's also possible there's too much slop in the bar.[video=youtube;tRndweSQI44]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRndweSQI44[/video]
 
could be that when cutting vertical that you got the weight of the saw to help ya where as horizontal you don't. Does the saw cut different with another bar ie shorter?

Yeah, it'll dog in and cut plenty fast horizontally with the 28", but with the 42" even dogging pretty hard, after a few seconds it stops and bogs down, smokes, and no chips fly. It's really not a big deal, I "need" the 42 once or twice a year. I saw a video of a logger using a 72" (probably randymac) and he started his cut near the tip, seemingly to support it and take the bend out of the bar. I hate taking out the 42 'cause it means I've lost a big, beautiful tree.
 

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