Trim or Remove?

[SLUND]

I have a maple tree in my front yard that I am trying to decide if it should be trimmed or removed. The tree is tall and has several sections of dead branches at the top. I called 3 places to get estimates on trimming and removing.
The first place gave me a $300 estimate to trim and $1500 to remove it.
The second place gave me a $1445 estimate to remove but noted that since the tree is dying from the top down trimming it would be a waste of money.
The third place said they would be out to look at it yesterday and I'm still waiting to hear from them.

So, I am curious if anyone has heard about a tree dying from the "top down" and has any opinion on whether this tree should just be taken out or trimmed.

Thanks for your responses.

 

[computeruser]

Got pictures? They always help in the diagnosis.

 

[SLUND]

Photo is always worth a thousand words...
Here's our tree. We've not noticed any problems with it's leaves, trunk, etc. We've only noticed a lot of sticks and branches falling - we assume from the top dead branches.

 

[treeseer]

The second place gave me a $1445 estimate to remove but noted that since the tree is dying from the top down trimming it would be a waste of money.

I do not understand this reasoning. Very often trees die back due to root loss, then regrow. If the roots and trunk are sound, reduction pruning may be a good idea. The picture shows a new crown, with easy targets to make the reduction cuts to.

1500-1445, close on the quotes huh?

That looks like shiny new asphalt. When was the driveway redone? 2-3 years?

 

[SLUND]

I had never heard of a tree dying from "the top down" and hence turned here to see if anyone else had. I was kind of surprised that they second company didn't leave an estimate for trimming even if they didn't recommend it. They must really want $1445!

We have had problems with roots in our pipes (we get someone to come in and break up the roots every year). Of course, they aren't able to identify which tree is trying to grow roots in there. So, I thought maybe the tree was ailing because of whatever septic waste it might be getting in its system. The tree does seem to have sound roots and trunk though.

Actually, the blue house in the picture isn't mine. I live in the brick one off to the right that is hardly in the picture. We just moved in three years ago; so, I don't know how long ago the neighbor had his driveway redone. I can say that he probably hates our maple. It seems to drop a lot more sticks on his driveway then in our yard. The roots also compromise his driveway. Wonder if he'd be willing to chip in on the removal costs;-)

 

[dakota]

I would lean towards trimming it. Looks like it could be a nice shade tree if healthy. I'd shy away from treeman #2 - sounds like a 'removal expert'. Consider #1. But wait for #3 to chime in.

Maybe a candidate for a growth regulator?

 

[Elmore]

Trim

Prune out the dead and declining wood. Here is a link to info on Maple Decline that may be of help : http://plantclinic.cornell.edu/FactSheets/mapledecline/maple.htm

 

[Ekka]

That'd be the easiest $1500 USD you'd ever make, what a piece of cake.

Great link by the way.

Who's ever seen trees die from the bottom up?

As with all things you could extend it's life, just depends on you.

 

[treeseer]

Ekka we don't see the whole drop zone but yeah that looks like an easy job. that link from Cornell brought up a good point re deicing salt.

slund if you share the driveway maybe you can see that the ise is controlled with less salt this winter.

what is the compass directions-i.e. where does the tree case shade?

My money's still on dieback due to root loss from driveway construction, which would mena it's about done dying back now, so pruning would be a ongterm solution, if you wnat the tree. If you don't, yeah the neighbor should be happy to share the removal bill, maybe even go together with you on planting a new one elsewhere.

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

Silver Maple?

If you are going to have it pruned, have the soil tested and look into deep root fertilization, either verticle mulching or with an air spade. Pruning the dead out of a tree that is reacting to a root problem does no good without addressing the problem.

From what I can see, that would be an $800-900 removal here, 300-400 to prune

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

That'd be the easiest $1500 USD you'd ever make, what a piece of cake.

It looks like it would take about a half a day to top it out, chip it, get it on the ground, and cut it up.
It's a sliver maple so it's not really a hard wood, but you might be able to find someone to take the body wood away for free.
Then you'll have about an hour of final cleanup.
The stump looks like about 3' wide, so that would be about $100 or so to grind, then another couple hundred bucks to clean up the stump debris, fill the hole with dirt, seed and straw.
By the time everything is said and done, it'll be a whole day job for a crew. I'd say te removal estimate is good.
The trimming estimate seems low at $300. Silver maple gets weak very fast once it's dead, I don't see somebody climbing out on those leads, which means taking them out whole. It just looks like it would be hard to do without damaging the driveway and smashing a bunch of lower branches. Hard for $300 anyway.
This looks like an easy bucket truck job. Although its hard to bring in a bucket and spend a couple hours for $300.
My main concern is why the top is dying. If roots were cut for the driveway, the tree might not be safe to leave. Roots hold the tree up. If the neighbor killed it with his new drive, maybe he should help pay for the repair or removal of the tree. Maybe his driveway contractor has insurance to cover it.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Silver Maple?

If you are going to have it pruned, have the soil tested and look into deep root fertilization,

Do people still even do this anymore?
I though tree roots were shallow, over 95% in the top 12" of soil. The small feeder roots almost all grow up to the surface. Why would you go deep?
Isn't fertilizing a stressed out tree dangerous? It takes huge amounts of energy to metabolize nitrogen. If the starch reserves are already gone, wouldn't that kill the tree?
Maybe I answered my own question, you go deep to get the fertilizer down past the roots! That way the tree doesn't get any of the expensive fertilizer and lives on! Ha!

 

[SLUND]

I believe this is a Silver Maple tree - at least that's what my husband tells me it is.

I'm not sure that the neighbor actually caused any damage when he did the driveway. At least, if he is responsible then it would be hard to prove. He hasn't repaved his driveway in the almost 4 years I've lived here. We don't share this driveway either. I believe our property line ends right where the edge of the driveway is. So, our tree, his driveway.

I don't think that salt for deicing is a big issue either. He owns a fancy snowblower that he uses on a regular basis - he couldn't use it as much if he spent more money on salt.

This tree is in our front yard. Our house faces west. So, in the morning the tree shadow is cast to the west and in the evening to the east.

I do think the trimming cost was in the right ball park. I was just concerned that I was missing something important when group #2 told me not to trim and just to remove it. Group #3 has never surfaced or returned my calls. So, they won't be getting the work unless they show up for some dirt cheap price.

 

[Grace Tree]

I'm not sure of the cause but I've worked on quite a few maples this summer that look much like yours. I attributed it to last summer's drought but that may not be the cause. If you trim out the moribund leads it looks as though you'll still have a crown with an acceptable shape, although considerably smaller. You can always take it down but you can't put it back up.
Phil

 

[Ekka]

Hey Mike

Good points. I figured an 18" chipper would get right up close to that sucker and with a winch she'd be history in no time, also good miniloader access etc.

SLUND, many tree companies/arborists are running a business for profit, there's more money to make in a removal than a prune job.

I went out to a job site here where an unethical company told a lady to remove 12 dangerous gum trees. Of course their "arborist" is quick to make these assessments with eyes like superman. Luckily she called us and we made a better assessment, removing only 3 and pruning the rest ... and also way less money. She was stoked.

Many eucs here do the stag headed thing. In good years they flush up and bad years they retreat. That tree is more managable than any euc.

Forget the fertilizer, that's a bad call. Kill off some of that grass and mulch around the tree.

Do these tests in a couple of place, say between tree and bitumin driveway, and 3 other spots about 10' away from the trunk.

Make a close inspection of the basal area for fruiting bodies and decay. You can tap the tree with a plastic mallet and if it sounds hollow then it most likely is. Look for failure signs, fibre buckling etc. Here's a link to a beautiful colour chart that clearly shows what to look for.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=20996&highlight=vta+assessment+chart

2nd Can you grab a 10" long screw driver and try to stick it into the ground, can you push it in all the way easily or not at all ... it's a simple way of testing for compacted soils. Over here you wouldn't get it in the ground more than 1"!

3rd job, get a spade and cut a small square of lawn out, lift it, dig a small hole say the size of a coffee mug in the soil and fill it with a cup water , time how long it takes to dissappear. This is a drainage test.

4th test, PH test the soil, you can buy these PH test kits cheap, over here $20. Test each spot seperately and record findings.

5th, this one is important, it's a sodicity test. Toward the bottom of the page on this link is the test, simple and effective. http://www.science.org.au/nova/035/035print.htm

So lets assume a perfect world, reasonable drainage, no compaction, no sodicity and neutral PH. Then you can focus on mulching, pruning and soil conditioning

Lets assume a bad response, fix sodicity with gypsum, improve drainage, add lime or sulphur to get PH back in range, use air injection to decompact.

A crown reduction and dead wood would make large improvements to windthrow. Mulch and soil condition.

http://www.yates.com.au/Products/Fertilising/OrganicBased/DLseaweedconcentrate.asp

These kelp and seaweed products are great.

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

have the soil tested and fertilize as needed

deep root fertilization = from below the grass roots down to about 12 inches
as oposed to surface aplication

the goal is to areate, condition, fertilize

even if you don't fertilize, the tree will benefit from soil conditioning by mixing some compost, topsoil, loam in that top 12 inches

 

[TreemanFJR]

I think Maas is right on. Fertilizing a tree is seldom needed. If it is needed, then deep root fertilization doesn't make much sense (unless your definition is within the first 12 inches like Barcaskey's). The majority of the time trees face a secondary nutrient deficiency. This is when there IS an adequate amount of nutrients in the soil but the roots have been disturbed and are not functioning properly to uptake these nutrients. Iron an Manganese deficiencies are the exception and do seem to be more common(Copper and Zinc can be argues too).

I like the simple solutions first. Aeration and proper mulching with the crown reduction.

Trees in the urban setting have an uphill battle from day one.

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

maybe I am using the term wrong, but in 7 years of tree care, including getting my CA, I have always used and only heard the term "deep root fertilization" applied to the area from under the sod down to about 12 inches.
it is a term I use to cover verticle mulching, radial trenching, liquid fertilizer injection or root evacuation.
maybe a better term in my vocabulary is needed.

I would also argue that any tree in an urban environment has some type of soil/nutrient issue

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

here you go

http://www.arborilogical.com/articles/deep_root_fertilization.htm

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

here's an arborist site thread from back in 2001 on deep root fertilization.
Mike Maas even posted on it.

http://www.arboristsite.com/archive/index.php/t-1596.html