Tulip Popular with random yellow leaves?

[S Mc]

More on the Liriodendron tulipifera Yellow poplar (not a poplar but actually in the magnolia family).

Taipans, Dirr states in his Manual of Woody Landscape Plants that the Yellow poplar is also prone to leaf yellowing, a physiological disorder, problematic to newly planted trees as well as established trees which do not receive adequate water. The leaves abscise prematurely. So with the stress this tree has had in its short life, I would say this could be an expected circumstance.

The 3" movement in all directions should be sufficient for the time being. Hopefully, next year you will be able to take off the bracing.

Your weather is about what I would have thought (my brother lives outside St. Louis and that is what he has reported in the past). So I would definitely look into something to protect the trunk this winter.


Sylvia

 

[S Mc]

Pete M - I believe you have the Liriodendron tulipifera 'Aureomarginatum' the varigated cultivar of this tree. Yellow/green leaves with a strong island of green in the center. This certainly threw me for a loop because I had never seen one before.

Are you in Cornwall or Sussex? What kind of soil do you have? Since some of these leaves also display a possible chlorosis, I would do a soil/foliar test to be sure your tree is accessing the nutrients necessary. Also many variegated varities need full sun to express their full color. So if it is competing with the hedge and other trees you may have to compromise on its full potential.

I would also think that you could do without the stake now?

Thanks again for posting your pictures.

Sylvia

 

[Pete M]

Sylvia, you have just been a FANTASTIC help!

These trees prefer to grow in acid/neutral soils. Well, where I live (in Sussex) we have a relatively shallow layer of decent soil (quite high OM content) over chalk. This is alkaline. Add to that the fact that I water with grey water from washing machine outlet which will increase alkalinity still further, and the fact that the tree is mostly shaded in the afternoons (gets full sunlight until 1pm or so though)...this would explain the chlorosis. Drainage is very good so it's not often that the soil would remain saturated. Although there are times when the tree has been over-watered I always ensure now that the soil has a chance to dry out.

Action plan:

1. Reduce height of neighbour's hedge by a foot or two to expose more of the tree to afternoon sun. We'll still get sufficient screening, and if he moans about me reducing it then I'll get an order slapped on him as he has let it grow excessively tall anyway.

2. Apply my home made compost around the tree base. This is fairly acidic as I put a lot of onion and citrus fruit skins in it. Would it be ok to just move back some of the mulch, apply a couple of inches of compost and then put the mulch back over leaving the base still exposed as it is?

3. Keep a check on the watering regime! I'm going to check the pH of the grey water and look at ways of possibly lowering its pH.

Another thing that hasn't helped this tree is that it has a bit of a wound - this was caused by a grease band that was put around it a couple of years ago to solve a problem of ants that we should have just left. We noticed ants were herding and milking aphids so applied a grease band and also sprayed the tree with a mild detergent solution (washing up liquid) - the detergent solution got rid of the aphids, but also turned every single leaf brown almost overnight. It got a good load of regrowth the same year and has bounced back from that really well. But the grease band caused some decay on one side of the trunk that has left a wound about 2 inches long by 0.75 inch wide and perhaps 0.5 inches deep. The tree is dealing with this well though, bit I fear that supply to the tip of the leader may have been lost as the top10 inches or so of leader has not had any leaf on it this year!

I'm keeping my fingers crossed and will do what I can to help it along. I'm not in fear of iminent decline as I feel it should do better as it increases further above hedge height, but I would like it to do as well as possible.

Many thanks again Sylvia!

Pete
Brighton
Sussex, UK

 

[S Mc]

Pete M - Glad I was of some help. Re your action plan - some excellent thoughts.

1. We have a saying here in the US "Good fences, make good neighbors". In this case, this is the hedge. You could point out to your neighbor, if he is upset about the height reduction, that this is a temporary measure to allow your tree to grow taller and that the hedge will grow back and be allowed to be taller as the tree grows.

2. I like the idea that you are willing to allow pH change by natural decomposition rather than immediately applying surface fertilizers. As you know, if the soil is too alkaline (or acidic) certain nutrients become unavailable to the tree. I would still encourage you to test your soil but I see no problem with applying your compost. Remembering that trees like the "forest floor" leaf litter of gradual application and decomposition, I would sprinkle lightly and then reapply your mulch (if you want to camoflage your compost).

3. Definitely check your grey water! This can actually be the key issue here. You might want to consider collecting rain water and using it occasionally to water the trees if you need to "flush" with a more neutral medium.

Keeping this tree growing vigorously will be key to its being able to overcome infestations or pathogens, so good luck. Sometimes it is tempting to jump in a bit quickly to "help" and sometimes we need to let nature balance itself. These trees are sensitive to salt and other mineral toxicities so double checking what you use on or around them will be important.

Sylvia

 

[Taipans]

I just thought of something, could a root eating grub cause these types of symptoms? In the same spot I have the Tulip I had a sugar maple that died after the first season. I figured it drowned as the hole had been pre filled with rock and the tree planted very deep. But one thing I noted when I ripped it out was the number of grubs in and around the tree ball. I asked around about this at the time and everyone said grubs don't feed on tree roots only grass roots. So I just figured I had a grub issue in my yard and didn't worry about the trees.

I came across some information on the root eating type grub a few minutes ago and it has me wondering if that could of been why the old maple died off so quickly. If this is true, anyone know if there is anything I can do about it?

Thanks

 

[treegal1]

how about some mycorrhizal fungi,to help get the rhizosphere healthy and ward of some pathogens???

sorry did not mean to just jump in.......

 

[S Mc]

Treegal1 - I always like to see people jump in! Jump away!!

Taipans, I am not finding much helpful info yet and hope others jump in. Johnson's Insects that Feed on Trees and Shrubs does say "The roots of premium grasses seem to be the choice food for grubs (of the Japanese beetle) but they may also consume young roots of woody ornamental nursery stock."

So if you have Japanese beetles in your area, you might want to dig up a soil sample with grubs and take them to your local extension agency to get them positively identified. There apparently are many grubs that do not do any damage to tree roots, so it would be good to make sure.

If they are a problem, there are some beneficial nematodes that will go after them (while not harming the beneficial organisms in the soil) which (in my opinion) would be better than fighting them chemically as the organisms underground are so very important.

However, a positive id is necessary before proceeding with any treatment.

I will keep looking and hope someone more knowledgeable chimes in as well.

Sylvia

 

[treegal1]

milky spore is also a great bio control..

 

[treeseer]

the grubs were most likely beetle larvae just cleaning up the woody corpse.

 

[Treecareconcept]

Anyways a bad storm came through about a week after it was planted, we have 80+ MPH gusts. Which proceeded to rip the entire tree out of the ground, separating the roots from their caged ball and tossing the tree into the street seen in the picture. I had to go out, dig out the metal cage left in place then replant the tree with have its roots exposed back into the hole. I packed it well and made sure the flare was still in the right place. Mulched and got the guide wires "BACK" in place! Yes it had them before, but the stakes were not very large and the ground was wet so the storm ripped the entire tree and stakes out! I made up my own stakes about 3' long and hammered them very deep and so far after a few more bad storms it has been steady. I noticed allot of movement in the wind with the lower trunk area and now it
doesn't sway so I am hoping the roots took hold.

I guess with the horrible first year events I should just be happy its half alive at this point. But it actually looked fine until about a week ago. *shrug*[/QUOTE]

This extra info fills in a lot of blanks.

I seem to see some installation issues as well as the fact that the tree was uprooted during a storm.
Most problems I see with new trees failing to thrive are due to improper installation.
The wire cage should have been removed at planting, how can the roots be spread out properly if they are still in the root ball cage?
This can still be done but I would wait until this winter when the tree is dormant to reduce the stress it is already under.
(Basically replanting the tree.)

Here are some real basic planting guidelines:

The planting hole should be larger than the spread out roots.
Prune any girdling or circling roots, these will cause problems later.
Sylvia is right about the guying and staking. These are to help the tree support itself . Take them off as soon as possible so the tree will develop
proper trunk taper, which will help develop strength.
Make sure the tree gets any needed irrigation and try some Vitamin B to help transplant shock.
Good luck

 

[Taipans]

I asked around and got a consensus that the metal cage could be left on as long as the burlap was removed. I kind of still didnt feel like it was a good idea but the tree was fairy large and hard to move around. Right now it has nothing around the roots, when the storm seperated it I dug up the cage and threw it away!

I do have one other tree that the metal basket is still around, a 20' weeping willow! Its going to be a very tough task ripping that tree back out and getting the wire cage off. Do you guys think If I dont it will die?

I should of asked professionals about this instead of the older guys I work with.

The Tulip Popular has started dropping leaves, and more yellowing is now showing. I watered it with a ring bladder over the weekend, im hoping its from lack of water and it will bounce back.

 

[S Mc]

A general rule of thumb on the metal cage is that if it must remain, then it should be cut down at least by 1/3 from the top with the burlap peeled back also. This allows the top roots to spread out and generally the tree is just fine (we have planted our own trees using this method when we have purchased larger trees that weighed a ton). So if this is what you did with the willow, I would not recommend digging it back up. If you did not do this, I would recommend excavating around the cage and cutting it down, but again not digging up the entire tree.

The tuplip poplar is going to show signs of stress this year; there really is no way to get around that. You will have to exercise patience and hope it comes through the winter and develops next year. At this time of year, as with any time, check to be sure the tree actually needs moisture before watering. Overwatering can be just as bad for the tree as too little. (I know, it's like how do any survive?!!!)

Good luck and keep the faith!

Sylvia

 

[chuharj]

I also have a tulip popular losing its leaves suddenly.

I have a tulip popular that is over 100 years old. It has been very healthy and blooming beautifully every year. It seems to have been healthy this year. There are a few limbs that need trimmed -was waiting until it went dormant to do that. This morning I looked outside and noticed that it's dropping it's leaves like it would in the fall. I know it's late summer, but it seems pretty early to be doing it. I was wondering if we are getting an early fall and all is well, or if there might be an issue. I'm just freaking out because I love the tree and would hate to lose it. I'll try to post a picture this weekend. I'm not sure I can get a full picture...it's HUGE!!!!

 

[treegal1]

did the yard guy just put down weed and feed???

 

[chuharj]

No. Nothing has been applied to the yard in the last month. One thing I forgot to menthion. We had our sewer replaced this spring. So I'm sure some of the roots were disturbed...the sewer needed replaced because the roots had cracked the tiles. I kept an eye on things, and I only saw finger size roots disturbed...nothing major. It has seemed fine until now.

 

[treegal1]

ok so this drain repair, they did bring in new rock or drain sand??? it maybe changed the Ph or the calcium in the soil. are the pictures on the way????

and the months before, any weed and feed??

 

[Taipans]

I would love to see pictures of it, and I hope it bounces back!

Mine actually did, I think it wasn't getting enough water! I put one of those tree rings around it that does drip irragation and filled it up 3 days in a row. After that it seems to perk up! Then we got a few days a week later of steady rain and it seemed to kick it right back into gear!

 

[ATS/TexasTree]

In reading through this thread, I'm surprised that no one has suggested doing a soil test.

When interior leaves yellow and fall prematurely from a tree, it is often due to a lack of nitrogen. In the nursery (at least around here), young trees are pushed with fertilizer with each watering.

Homeowners almost never think to fertilize newly planted trees, but they will flood them with water that leaches out all of the soluble products leaving the young tree in a soil devoid of any nutrients.

Poplars do have a problem with alkalinity - both from the soil and less frequently thought of - the water source.

Acidifying the soil is easy for a young tree but becomes nearly impossible for older trees. Acidifying the water with vinegar is easy with young trees, but as Sylvia mentioned, rain water is best for all trees - young or old.

 

[treegal1]

ats, we are just trying to start off slow with this one, and hit him with the SFI test or the UMASS test in one minute. but before all that we just have to ask about the weed and feed, after that its on to the npk and after that we go after the rhizospere and other "micro herd".


and come to think of it its time to saw that wood down and plant $ more, at 100 its past its prime!!! if it was an oak then you would have a young tree, or a red wood, that would be a seedling at 100! but a popular??? come on guys lets get some grade A urban timber out of it and call it a day. also think about a storm, pick one to fall on the house, 100 year old monster or a 25 year old well managed tree???? my vote goes to the young one. $0.02.....

 

[S Mc]

In reading through this thread, I'm surprised that no one has suggested doing a soil test.

Please check my posts #23 and 25.


Chuharj, Liriodendron tuliperas are fairly intolerant of root pruning (per Matheny and Phillips). The septic replacement project could have impacted the tree on many levels. How big of equipment did they have to bring in and did they drive over the critical root zone? (approx 10" per 1" diameter inch of tree) Many construction people just simply do not realize how much compaction can take place while they are performing their tasks.

Also, it is not uncommon for these trees to develop a physiological disorder of interior leaf yellowing when not obtaining adequate water. So this could be a combination of issues. In addition to Treegal1's concern of pH alteration.

I hope you do post your pictures. Please include not only pictures of the entire tree (even if you have to split it up) but be sure to include the base and also the area where the septic went in with relation to the tree as these all might help us provide you with better information.

Taipans, I am so pleased to hear your tree is looking better!

Sylvia