undirectional notches

[Toddppm]

Didn't know what to call this Don't recall seeing this discussed before but.we took down a bunch of Va Pines today Tall and skinny. Only had to climb a couple , set a line and dropped most from the ground. A couple we did were leaning towards the house or even worse a propane tank! These were at the edge of tree line with a school behind so there was only one direction to go with them and they couldn't be climbed. Check the attached pic to see how we did it.
Set a line and had the guys pull against the lean with the notch not quite as far as the direction they were pulling, knowing that the tree would snap off before it could go that way and basically landing at a right angle from the direction of lean. Anybody else do this on a regluar basis? I've done it a few other times when theres no other way, just wanted to see if others do this or I'm taking a huge risk? It's actually pretty predictable where it's going to land if you've done it before.

 

[Toddppm]

uuhh ,attachment

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If I understand it right, you notch away form the lean and have them pull as you do the back cut?

Sounds a little unsafe to me, I would want steady, anchored pull; like a hand billy or Winch. I do this on a regular basis with The Winch. Wide face and thick hinge, cranck till it falls over. With a high tie you can get a very big tree over with ease.

If you are concerned with even pull in a large crown, run the rope around several leads and put a standing bo'lin in line with the pull.

Before I got The Winch I toiled with bore cut and feathered wedges to jack the tree up till it tipped on the hinge.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Pretty Slick!

i really rely on Douglas Dent's model of always laying a tree into the face directly and using leveraged highangle pulls (line higher than Center of Balance perhaps with 3/1pull by several men etc.) and/or leveraged hinging (triangle hinge pulling to off side of lean like line) to lay into this face. Using overwhelming force to the opposite axis on the hinge than lean. You might Check out his book : "Professional Timber Falling-a Procedural Approach".

Of course that would all be hinging in good, live, flexible, non-disrupted grain trees with wide face hinging mostly. Tight, wedges lifting helps too. Perhaps ad a better pulling lacing even torqued by the pull slightly.

 

[Toddppm]

It could be dangerous if there is unsound wood at the notch. No way to pull directly against the lean , like in the my scribble drawing they were at the edge of a tree line only about 20 ft. deep and leaning out towards the house. The other side was a school.
Haven't read Dents book yet, one of many I need to. These trees were only about 12"-20" DBH so not alot of room to work with wedges and real springy. Could have probably broke them off just by pulling on the tie in line(tied about 35-40 ft up)

Another thing that makes it hairy is they have to keep pulling and taking up slack as it starts to go or you won't get it to turn at all. So you really can't tie off the end of the line unless you can get the slack out fast.

 

[Stumper]

Sounds like all went well. Personally I expext to make live pines follow my notch. I usually pretension with sufficient tension to counteract the weight overcenter , leave lots of meat in the hinge then add a little more tension to bring it over. There is a limit to how large a tree I'll do this with of course. In cases of severe lean I sometimes rig a second line which serves as a static control line-it will prevent the tree from being able to strike the structure if the hinge should fail. (makes the rigging more complex since it has to allow the tree to fall while preventing falling the wrong way)

 

[ramanujan]

I often have felled red alders just as you've explained Todd. And have seen a guy be a bit too optimistic with the undercut and had the hinge break far before he expected (luckily not much to break.) Takes a bit of practice to learn what is enough and too much.

With trees with consistently strong and ductile wood a guy can even make several shallow undercuts to bring a tree around 180º.

 

[geofore]

pines

Use two lines for safety and better control if you are going to do this often. The tree can swing on an arc to one rope but stays in between two ropes opposing one another. What would have happened if the tree jumped off the stump? Which way would it fall with one rope if you have a hinge failure? Always make sure your rope is long enough your guys are out from under the LZ of the tree.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

They won't break off at top if you go over through strong crotch then trace down the back side of the fall to clove on the backside right above the cut. In this way, all the force of the pull isn't just choked at one focus point of stresss like running bowline, but rather braced by increasing diameter of the spar as it traces down the back, also in the most cocked back/leveraged position and finally, the exta leg of line at that angle and friction may give up to ~ 1.4/1 tension at the top of line, that due to the extra bracing can be placed at even more of a higher leverage of pull. This gives best security and pull i think; also as JP points out easier to untie and ulace knot after pull as it ends up on top of the dropped spar near cutter, rather than buried; also easier to change your mind etc.{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&postid=32728#post32728}

That coupled with triangle hinge a'la Dent {http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&postid=40011#post40011}; i think is mechanically most correct, but i am Dent brainwashed and those are his words!

If they are 'springy pines' i like loading that spring and letting that work for me; but i am quite a 'tweaker' at these things, for i learn the most walking that outer edge of power to investigate every nuance to name and segregate, to polish each pieace to build into subsequent gravity powered, line controlled rigging/drops! Or something like that!

If the lay of the hinge flap is diretly into 12o'clock (PM JP!) i would visualize pulling across the face of the hinge but not to 3o'clock; but rather to 1:30-2 o'clock. Looking to still pull forward, but also lay a load directly into the hinge with a balanced set of pulls across it's face. Lean on one side, held in checked restriction on the cross axis by the sum of fibred pulls to balance the lean's pull out. One of these being the line pulls sumnation of pulling(3/1 etc.), running to the bracing/leverage/mechanical advantage sumnation running on the load itself (tree).

The other fibre, still on the cross axis of the lean is the wood hinge fibre. It is very powerful, calculated pull by how far out from the lean's pull it is leveraged across the face, and seperately it's amount of rear most fibre in triangle placing most leveraged stretch pulling over front fibre. This takes good wood no dryness, decay, knots, catfacing etc.; because it doesn't put strain at the top like the line, it requires strength/flexability of fibre at the more inspectable, strongest part of the tree in a drop (trunk at hinge)! To maximize this over the widest range of speed/direction control i use a wide mouth hinge, with perfect, non-intersecting cuts for the widest sweep of all this control, that doesn't jam/tearoff early from any shelf of intersecting cuts in the face disturbing the perfect gracefull flow of the hinge machine. Then wee pull with the most leveraged force to call on the most amount of hinge fibre to start the flex, so that there is more holding fibre available through the hinge sweep's ushering from this challenging of the hinge.

All this applies to rigging, even turning these models sideways. It is exactly the same but diffrent! So i practice and observe them with every cut, finding the most distilled down properties into blox to understand and assemble in diffrent machines with each piece familiar and polished, to watch how far it get's tweaked that time and the sum and lessons of that; that go into the next; checking them each against all present theories...

In my area, i consider pines one of the easiest to manipulate, explore and learn these things!

As the ancients believed, the ability to understand and call these devils out by name grants control over them; though i think that belief is now aimed more at shrinx (bartenders, hairdressors too etc.!!!!); it is quite an empower-meant that serves me well here.

 

[Greg]

I have used my Rope-Puller come-along winch for this a bunch of times. Because it pulls so slowly I think the hinge tends to break a little early with heavy leaners like you are talking about. I think that that faster you can overcome the lean the more accurate you can get. I'm not sold on running the pull line all the way down the spar, I think tied off in a meaty section of the tree is all you need, and that may require running it over a few limbs and down a little, but not alll the way down to the cuts.

I can't imagine a more detailed look at the hinge, back cut and endless variations that you will find in Doug Dents book.
Greg

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Fish poling the pull line is sound practice. You may loose a little with movement in the crotch, but you can tie higher in the tree, which increases MA by lenghtening the lever.

 

[Matt Follett]

Nicely Put Treespyder

This is a funny topic for me, seening as we have just finished this massive job, felling 176 Picea nigra, all relatively mature, about 65', and around 2 tons a piece... (Sometimes we find ourselves doing things we don't enjoy totally) Anyway, a good percentage were straight drops, but the rest were coming over center.

Typically we used our 9/16 stable braid as the pull line, with a 3-1, or 5-1 block and tackle pull, VT'd to the 9/16 line, when things where hairy (high winds and the building behind) we snubbed the 9/16 to the porta-wrap at the anchor. That way if the 5-1 wasn't enough for 1 person, it wouldn't sit back on the saw till we sorted things out. Yeah, we fishing poled everything down the backside, and running BL'd the line to the trunk above the cut.


A few times we set two anchors and two lines for that afore mentioned triangular effect.

I Like open notches, right on the drop line, that way I've got control till it hits the ground.

90% of the time we dropped straight into the pull line, but on side leaners, we might set the line off 10 degrees and leave a wide hinge light side to help keep the hinge intact till it came over center, then I'd slice that out to drop it straight.

We've got 5 more to do tomorrow, then start picking up logs, anybody now what to do with a billion board feet of Austrian Pine

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Find a small mill and sell on consinement.

On a job like that the GRCS would have paid for it's self with all that handbilly futzing

With that many trees, why no crane? no access?

 

[Matt Follett]

GRCS I wish

Unfortunatly this job had to put all the money it could in the bank to keep 'em happy, still working on getting the big toys

I've got a Hiab on the chip truck, that worked for picking stuff up and loading, but everything was pretty straight forward.

Heres a good poll question maybe, Chipper size, does it really matter?

We started this job renting a BIG, Woodchuck 19, this is a Perkins powered 14 inch unit with hydraulic lift on the feed wheels, (big pieces), but today we just had our Brush Bandit 65, (30hp wisconson) It was only 10% slower chipping brush then the big guy, with two people feeding, That big machine cost me $300 a day, man now I'm mad, I could have used the Bandit, had a bit more wood to pick up and save myself a bundle on the expenses (that would have been My GRCS )

What is the general concensus on chipper size?

 

[Tim Gardner]

I was always told to notch the tree in the direction you want it to fall regardless of lean. Between the pull line and a steering cut it will fall right where you want it if there is sound wood.

I could have won a six pack by dropping a large pine stub 90º to a heavy lean without using a pull line. I put the stub right where I wanted it but I didn’t drink at the time.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Since you said ealier that your pulling th logs out now, the big chipper was a waist. If you were able to load the lofs and brush mechaninly or rig stuff right into the shute, then it helps out a lot. when renting, that is.

Don't be mad, just write it off as a learning expoeriance.

For general tree work I like a 12 inch unit with around 85hp deisel. That 10% you noticed pays off in the long run. Say if you chip for 3 hours a day then that saves you 20 min a day and a lot of effort figting big limbs and cutting crotch sections down. Deisel dont lug down as easy.... ther have been a few posts on chipper opinions.

I think the Vermeer BC1000 is the best general pruning chipper on the market.

 

[Stumper]

Nice philosophy JPS but I've worked enough for learning experiences. Now I want some money!

 

[Dan Flinn]

I have a brush bandit 200+. I think it's got a 80hp diesel and will take about 12 inch log. The difference it makes for me is that if I can drag the limb/tree to it, it will chip it - no loading!

Here's a trick about throwing those trees:

I agree with all the lines etc. but for a little added help, take the piece that was removed when the notch was cut and put it in the notch on the side opposite the direction you want it to fall. As the tree falls, the piece will help to move the tree in the direction you want. Try it! you'll be suprised to see how much it will move the top!

(This is assuming that you cut a notch with the bottom parallel to the ground - not an open face.)

Dan

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The "Fishing Pole" technique not only works because of the spring-flex you put into it as the name implies but there is real mechanical advantage at work. i use this on trees that don't 'fish pole' over also because of these properties.

Becuase it doesn't just pull at one area and is reinforced by the whole 'back spine ' of the tree, you can safely rig higher for more leveraged pull as JP notes; but there is more. You now have 2 legs of pull on the top! In a perfect pairalled lines with no friction this would put 2x the pull on the top, this is decreased by the friction at the top, and the open angle of the lines, but unless the line at the top is really pinched, should yield more than 1x your input pull. So you have that compounding the higher leverage point!

If i can i will lace this over the top over a 'cocked ' back piece(in the rear), so that the lines will be more pairallell to tweak this. If it is something that i have climbed i might leave a loop runner with karab at the top (with the line running through it) to make this more slipperry, especially in a tight crotch. All lil'tweaks.

i also use this imperfect 2/1 to power the self torquing rig, and the double self tightening rigs i 'build'; using whatever i can to the maximum; just by lacing that lil'line diffrently! It also helps in full drops to lace and torque the line to the heavy crown side, placing this pressure here, then pulling to it's forward cross axis; especially aided by a triangle hinge.

These are things that i played with for years, thinking that they were more powerful, but not understanding these reasons and names of why. i now believe that i can name them as mechanically correct.

All this can be to balance out an imbalance, commit forward into face, or to pull forward into face so hard as to make it come forward with more hinge wood holding for a slower more controlled drop through the sweep of arc dictated by the hinge. This is of course maximized by a wide open face with non-intersecting cuts. For a narrow face can't take full advantage of this for whenst the 2 faces meet they must sieze or shear (early in a noarrow face) and even in a wide face; intersecting cuts can put a narrow hinge within a wide one causing early shear/tearoff. Stopping the face cuts just short of the center, puts the hinge in the center, at the sidest part of the tree, with the most wood fibre to manipulate.

 

[geofore]

no notch

Tomorrow if it doesn't rain we are going to try to use a 5/1 block set up to pull a dead elm over without the saws. There is space enough to not worry where it lands. The problem is that the tree was undermined when the sewer line under it seperated so the tree has a hole under it 4'x3' and 5'deep, not one you'd climb. Throw the rope up then pull up the block and tie the rope to the base of the tree and set it to 5/1 againt a tree in good shape and redirect it to the truck and see if it will come out sideways without the cuts. With the block 40' up in the tree it should have enough leverage to tip thr tree over sideways roots and all without the cut. I have doubts that there are roots enough to hold the tree up as they rot when the elm dies. It should go down sideways instead of down the hill. Treespider, what is your approach on the ones that aren't safe to climb? I'm lucky this one is in a spot on a hillside with enough space to practice on otherwise it would have to be cut to fall in the right direction. This works and we are going to pull the other three down and cut them up after they are on the ground. At worst we'll pull the top out and have the trunk to cut down but I'm betting the tree tips over roots and all first try.