What caused this??

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Here in CA we have really crappy gas, I was buying the good stuff in Orygun, but now they have crappy gas. I switched to getting pre-mixed fuel in a can, it is expensive, but replcing melted fuel lines and carb parts is too, some vintage stuff is hard to find.

It's a damn shame when Pemex is better Petrol that what we have here...

"Gasohol" has been around since the 80's here, and it never was a problem dodging it untill the Greenweenies made E-85 a populist label, so now the crap is everywhere.

I am considering Av Gas to avoid the wandering ethanol content issues.

A shop south of me just got 3 390XP's and a 576XP brought in from the same company... Fuel tested out at 20% ethanol, and was purchased at the local Shell station. FRIED pistons on all of 'em, and none were fueled from the same can.

I envy the guys who can find non E-85, and states that mandate labeling the ethanol content on the pumps.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote
 
Heat would just be adding more alcohol to the mix. Looks to me like they were let sit in the cold and then brought into a warm humid shop just long enough for condensation to happen or they were started for just a few seconds often enough for the water to build up on the cylinder and the piston stuck to the cylinder and smeared.
 
Here in Tennessee we still have choice, as the ethanol content is marked on the pumps. At one time in the not so distant past I thought some alcohol in gas is not a bad thing as it would mix with and help burn any water that could be in the gas tank. This thinking of mine related to our automobiles, not small engines. I had not a clue it would damage a two stroke at that time. After running the "cheap stuff" for awhile I noticed fuel mileage was down 3-4 miles per gallon and my old carbureted Fairlane was detonating upon rapid acceleration. After testing in my crude way I swore off alcohol (pun intended), and have been only using pure gas now for several years. I have found that the "no name" fuel sold at a small store close by my house has the best gas in terms of mileage. I guess I'm lucky to have stopped buying crappy fuel (and to have a choice) before the CAD struck. Thanks for starting this thread Ultra, you may have saved a lot of folks some real problems. :cheers:
 
mastermind you may be rite this thread is a good one if it will get newbies that dint no the old gas it could save them lots of trouble even experienced Ive bean cutting 23+years (off&on)and have never Sen piston & cylinder quite like that and it seams to be more often with these newer saws. I think Ill stay with my older slower saws except my jonsered I like that fast screamer its fun
 
Here in CA we have really crappy gas, I was buying the good stuff in Orygun, but now they have crappy gas. I switched to getting pre-mixed fuel in a can, it is expensive, but replcing melted fuel lines and carb parts is too, some vintage stuff is hard to find.


There are a number of problems showing up with E-10 here. Believe it or not Maine is modeling its green fuel and air quality laws after CA. The only thing that runs without problems on it is the new autos that were desigined for it. Here is the thing is with ethanol fuel and 2 strokes. As has been stated before ethanol absorbs water from the air and then will separate from the gas. The water laden ethanol also does not mix with the oil and rejects the oil back into the gas. But remember this water laden ethanol will attempt to burn which is what it does but without the benefit of any lube. So you have suddenly no lube and a mix of alky and water running your 2 stroke. Not good!! The other thing we are finding here is that not only does ethanol go after fuel lines and carb gaskets, diaphragms etc. It degrades fiberglass resin too. Many boats built in the 70s-80s-90s of fiberglass have built in fuel tanks made entirely of glass. Cheap, strong and could be installed wherever needed in practically any shape. Normal gasoline or diesel would not touch it, no corrosion from water just an all round good setup.....Until E-10, now all these boats are having to cut out glass tanks and replace with stainless because the eth is attacking the resin and not only does this pose an explosion threat form leakage but the first sign of problems are fuel filters, pickups and pumps becoming clogged with fiberglass fibers. Not good when you are in rough weather offshore and tanks are being stirred from the motion of the vessel. Most of these tanks are located below decks and were never meant to be serviced except through small hatches for clean out and sending unit/fuel line replacement. They were considered to be able to last the life of the boat. This is usually an extremely expensive repair ripping up watertight decks and bulkheads to replace these tanks. All so we can pretend we're going green. This is one of the most short sighted things our lawmaker have pulled yet. Why? Who wins? The greens think they are doing something evo sound and some farmers sell alot of corn and the eth producers get more work. So do people who fix all the problems that come from this. I bet 2 stroke piston production has gone up as well.
 
Phase Separation in Gasoline’s containing Ethanol is now a major problem for all users of gasoline.

Whether you use gasoline as a fleet operator or for your family car, classic car, boat, personal water-craft, motorcycle, snowmobile, ATV, RV, lawnmower, weed-whacker, generator, or any of the thousands of other types of equipment that use gasoline engines; you are being affected by Ethanol in your fuel.

Phase Separation describes what happens to gasoline containing Ethanol when water is present. When gasoline containing even small amounts of Ethanol comes in contact with water, either liquid or in the form of humidity; the Ethanol will pick-up and absorb some or all of that water. When it reaches a saturation point the Ethanol and water will Phase Separate, actually coming out of solution and forming two or three distinct layers in the tank.

Phase Separation is also temperature dependent. For example, E-10 can hold approximately .05% water at 60°F. To better understand the amount of water that we are talking about, picture 1 gallon of E-10 at 60°F. This gallon will hold approximately 3.8 teaspoons of water. However if the temperature drops to 20°F it can only hold about 2.8 teaspoons of water.



Phase Separation can happen in an underground or an aboveground storage tank, a vehicle tank, a boat tank, in any type of equipment tank, and even in the gas can in your garage.

When this happens, you can have serious and even catastrophic engine problems, without warning.

When this Phase Separation occurs you will have an upper layer of gasoline with a milky layer of Ethanol and Water below it, and then in many cases a third layer of just water at the bottom.

If this happens and you try to start the engine you can have one or more of the following problems. If your fuel tank pick-up tube is in the water layer, most likely the engine will fail to start. If the engine is running and suddenly draws water you can have damage from thermal shock or hydro-lock. If the pick-up tube draws the Ethanol-Water mixture or just Ethanol you can have problems where the engine will operate in an extreme lean condition, which can cause significant damage or even catastrophic failure. If the pick-up tube draws the gasoline, it will operate very poorly due to lower octane that is the result of no longer having the Ethanol in the fuel.

Gasoline containing Ethanol provides further challenges and dangers for marine operators (Boaters) and other users of seasonal equipment such as motorcycles, personal water-craft, snowmobiles, ATV’s, RV’s, yard maintenance, generators, and other equipment.

Ethanol is a strong, aggressive solvent and will cause problems with rubber hoses, o-rings, seals, and gaskets. These problems are worse during extended storage when significant deterioration will take place. Hoses will delaminate, o-rings will soften and break down, and fuel system components made from certain types of plastics will either soften or become hard and brittle, eventually failing. Fuel system components made from brass, copper, and aluminum will oxidize to the point of failure.

Operators of boats with fiberglass fuel tanks built before 1993 can have actual structural failure as Ethanol will break down and pick-up some of the materials the tanks are made from. This causes two separate but equally serious problems. First the tanks can become so weakened that they can fail. In cases where the tank is part of the boats structure we have seen tanks become so weak that it is possible to collapse part of the deck just by walking on it. The second problem is that this material when dissolved from the fiberglass tank is carried through the fuel system and can cause damage to carburetors and fuel injectors and can actually get into the combustion chambers causing damaging deposits on valves and pistons. This material can be nearly impossible to remove without destroying the affected parts.

Two-Cycle engines have a special problem with Ethanol blended fuels. Two-Cycle engines function because the oil added to the fuel bonds to the engines metal surfaces and provides barrier lubrication to all the parts requiring lubrication. When Ethanol is added to the gasoline, it displaces the oil and forms a primary bond with the metal surfaces. This bond provides virtually no lubrication and can result in significantly increased wear and even catastrophic failure in a very short amount of time.

Until now the only preventative measures available to tank operators and end users was to try and make sure there was no water in the tank and that vents allowed a minimum amount of airborne water (humidity) into the tank.

Gasohol, E-10, E-20, and E-85 are the terms that refer to gasoline containing Ethanol. For example the most common fuel available today is E10. E-10 is 10% Ethanol and 90% gasoline, while E-85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gasoline (Note: E-85 is actually E-70 in the winter in cold weather (Northern Tier) states.

Ethanol has less energy (as measure in Btu’s – British Thermal Units) per gallon than does regular unleaded gasoline. This means that the more Ethanol found in fuel the worse your fuel economy will be. You use more gallons of fuel containing Ethanol to go fewer miles.

This poor fuel economy is made worse by other EPA and State requirements for fuels to change seasonally. Until very recently we have used what is known as “Conventional” gasoline (CVG) in the winter and “Reformulated gasoline (RFG) in the summer. The theory is that the lower volatility of RFG will reduce the formation of green house gases. However RFG has lower Btu’s per gallon. RFG together with Ethanol results in a significant mileage penalty. My own vehicle drops about 2 miles per gallon or about 9% when using RFG with Ethanol.

For many years the refining industry used a chemical called MTBE to meet the oxygenate requirements set forth by the EPA. Generally refiners used 15% MTBE and 85% gasoline. However MTBE has now been virtually eliminated in the US due to its carcinogenic compounds and the huge potential problems caused by its pollution of as much as 75% of the ground water in the US and Canada.

This has left Ethanol as the primary additive to meet Federal and State oxygenate mandates.

Further the federal government currently subsidizes Ethanol with a $.51 per gallon tax credit that goes to the refiners or blenders. With E-10 this provides those refiners and or blenders with a $.051 per gallon subsidy on every gallon of gasoline that they sell.

In many cases we have seen gasoline containing more than 10% Ethanol. We test regularly and have seen fuel containing 12%, 13%, and even 14% Ethanol while the pump shows only 10%. Increasing the amount of Ethanol increases the refiner/blenders subsidy and profit while further lowering your fuel economy.

One more concern with Ethanol and RFG or Ethanol and CVG is that Ethanol when mixed with water; they readily form Gums in the fuel system much quicker than gasoline without Ethanol. These Gums coat fuel system components including filters, carburetors, injectors, throttle plates; and will then form varnish and carbon deposits in the intake, on valves, and in the combustion chamber. These deposits can coat sensors and plug catalytic converters.

The good news is that we now have products available to prevent and control Phase Separation and that we can dramatically reduce or eliminate most of the problems caused by Ethanol in Gasoline.

Because of all the problems with Ethanol Blended gasoline’s we will list some specific suggestions and recommendations on how to deal with and resolve many of these problems.

When Phase Separation occurs in fuel tank on a vehicle, boat or other piece of equipment, the tank should be completely drained. The tank should be refilled with good fuel and the fuel line purged prior to restarting the engine.

For Seasonal vehicles and equipment, e.g. boats, personal water-craft, motorcycles, classic cars, ATV’s, RV’s, lawn and garden equipment, gasoline powered generators, and so on, we recommend that you try to use conventional gasoline without Ethanol whenever possible and particularly prior to storage.

In ALL Two-Cycle gasoline engines where there is any possibility that you are using gasoline containing Ethanol we strongly suggest using a full synthetic two-cycle oil in the gas.

In bulk storage tanks where you believe phase separation may have occurred or where you are concerned it may happen. We suggest the use of a modified water finding paste such is made by the Kolor Kut Company. This paste starts out brown, if you dip the tank with a measuring stick with the paste and it turns yellow (even light or spotty yellow), you have significant water dissolved in the fuel, if the paste turns red you have free water.

If you have fuel that has Phase Separated and you have either two or three layers you should arrange to have the tank pumped from the bottom to remove the one or two bottom layers containing the water and or the Ethanol/Water mix. (Note: you should check again with the paste before the technician leaves to be certain that all the Water and Water/Ethanol has been completely removed). You do not need to remove the gasoline. Check with water finding paste after 24 hours. If no red or yellow present then add clean fuel to the tank to working capacity.
 
There are a number of problems showing up with E-10 here. Believe it or not Maine is modeling its green fuel and air quality laws after CA. The only thing that runs without problems on it is the new autos that were desigined for it. Here is the thing is with ethanol fuel and 2 strokes. As has been stated before ethanol absorbs water from the air and then will separate from the gas. The water laden ethanol also does not mix with the oil and rejects the oil back into the gas. But remember this water laden ethanol will attempt to burn which is what it does but without the benefit of any lube. So you have suddenly no lube and a mix of alky and water running your 2 stroke. Not good!! The other thing we are finding here is that not only does ethanol go after fuel lines and carb gaskets, diaphragms etc. It degrades fiberglass resin too. Many boats built in the 70s-80s-90s of fiberglass have built in fuel tanks made entirely of glass. Cheap, strong and could be installed wherever needed in practically any shape. Normal gasoline or diesel would not touch it, no corrosion from water just an all round good setup.....Until E-10, now all these boats are having to cut out glass tanks and replace with stainless because the eth is attacking the resin and not only does this pose an explosion threat form leakage but the first sign of problems are fuel filters, pickups and pumps becoming clogged with fiberglass fibers. Not good when you are in rough weather offshore and tanks are being stirred from the motion of the vessel. Most of these tanks are located below decks and were never meant to be serviced except through small hatches for clean out and sending unit/fuel line replacement. They were considered to be able to last the life of the boat. This is usually an extremely expensive repair ripping up watertight decks and bulkheads to replace these tanks. All so we can pretend we're going green. This is one of the most short sighted things our lawmaker have pulled yet. Why? Who wins? The greens think they are doing something evo sound and some farmers sell alot of corn and the eth producers get more work. So do people who fix all the problems that come from this. I bet 2 stroke piston production has gone up as well.

I was going to suggest that you could cross into canada and buy some gas, no ethanol, but then I thought of the price difference. Gas is about $4.50 a gallon here.:mad:
 
Two-Cycle engines have a special problem with Ethanol blended fuels. Two-Cycle engines function because the oil added to the fuel bonds to the engines metal surfaces and provides barrier lubrication to all the parts requiring lubrication. When Ethanol is added to the gasoline, it displaces the oil and forms a primary bond with the metal surfaces. This bond provides virtually no lubrication and can result in significantly increased wear and even catastrophic failure in a very short amount of time.

Hey Steve,

Was this guy running E-10, E-20, or E-85?
 
There are a number of problems showing up with E-10 here. Believe it or not Maine is modeling its green fuel and air quality laws after CA. The only thing that runs without problems on it is the new autos that were desigined for it. Here is the thing is with ethanol fuel and 2 strokes. As has been stated before ethanol absorbs water from the air and then will separate from the gas. The water laden ethanol also does not mix with the oil and rejects the oil back into the gas. But remember this water laden ethanol will attempt to burn which is what it does but without the benefit of any lube. So you have suddenly no lube and a mix of alky and water running your 2 stroke. Not good!! The other thing we are finding here is that not only does ethanol go after fuel lines and carb gaskets, diaphragms etc. It degrades fiberglass resin too. Many boats built in the 70s-80s-90s of fiberglass have built in fuel tanks made entirely of glass. Cheap, strong and could be installed wherever needed in practically any shape. Normal gasoline or diesel would not touch it, no corrosion from water just an all round good setup.....Until E-10, now all these boats are having to cut out glass tanks and replace with stainless because the eth is attacking the resin and not only does this pose an explosion threat form leakage but the first sign of problems are fuel filters, pickups and pumps becoming clogged with fiberglass fibers. Not good when you are in rough weather offshore and tanks are being stirred from the motion of the vessel. Most of these tanks are located below decks and were never meant to be serviced except through small hatches for clean out and sending unit/fuel line replacement. They were considered to be able to last the life of the boat. This is usually an extremely expensive repair ripping up watertight decks and bulkheads to replace these tanks. All so we can pretend we're going green. This is one of the most short sighted things our lawmaker have pulled yet. Why? Who wins? The greens think they are doing something evo sound and some farmers sell alot of corn and the eth producers get more work. So do people who fix all the problems that come from this. I bet 2 stroke piston production has gone up as well.

Hopefully the politicians pass the No-ETOH higher octane fuel bill. I am not sure where it is in legislation but hopefully it will get passed and soon.

This would give us the option to buy non-ETOH fuel, albeit the highest octane and most expensive. Ethanol is not better for the environment, well at least not right now. For every gallon of fuel invested in corn based ethanol we only yield 1.2 gallons of fuel back, so a net gain of 0.2 gallons. Not to mention that we are using valuable farm land that should be used for food production, not fuel. Forest or switchgrass based ethanol might be better (for the environment, not engines) because it uses non-farmland that is not producing food. I heard a figure that for every gallon input for forest based ethanol a net gain of 4 gallons can be had. Much better than corn. I blame it all on the midwest and the big corn lobby, not CA. I blame CA for the stupid ass cat mufflers and even more dumb gas cans.
 
Hopefully the politicians pass the No-ETOH higher octane fuel bill. I am not sure where it is in legislation but hopefully it will get passed and soon.

This would give us the option to buy non-ETOH fuel, albeit the highest octane and most expensive. Ethanol is not better for the environment, well at least not right now. For every gallon of fuel invested in corn based ethanol we only yield 1.2 gallons of fuel back, so a net gain of 0.2 gallons. Not to mention that we are using valuable farm land that should be used for food production, not fuel. Forest or switchgrass based ethanol might be better (for the environment, not engines) because it uses non-farmland that is not producing food. I heard a figure that for every gallon input for forest based ethanol a net gain of 4 gallons can be had. Much better than corn. I blame it all on the midwest and the big corn lobby, not CA. I blame CA for the stupid ass cat mufflers and even more dumb gas cans.

:agree2::agree2:
 
Hopefully the politicians pass the No-ETOH higher octane fuel bill. I am not sure where it is in legislation but hopefully it will get passed and soon.

This would give us the option to buy non-ETOH fuel, albeit the highest octane and most expensive. Ethanol is not better for the environment, well at least not right now. For every gallon of fuel invested in corn based ethanol we only yield 1.2 gallons of fuel back, so a net gain of 0.2 gallons. Not to mention that we are using valuable farm land that should be used for food production, not fuel. Forest or switchgrass based ethanol might be better (for the environment, not engines) because it uses non-farmland that is not producing food. I heard a figure that for every gallon input for forest based ethanol a net gain of 4 gallons can be had. Much better than corn. I blame it all on the midwest and the big corn lobby, not CA. I blame CA for the stupid ass cat mufflers and even more dumb gas cans.


:agree2::agree2: I wasn't blaming CA for our ethanol just saying that Maine with a rather low population was jumping right on the clean air bandwagon follwing CAs example. Even though CA has umpty-bijillion more people.

Definately the corn lobby, the refinery and the ever amazing Green lobby.

Doing the math at 0.2 gallons back that renders a gain of 12.80 FLOZs per 128 FLOZs of fuel. Just a wisker more than a 12 FLOZ Budweiser per gallon af gasoline. It would be cheaper to buy a 30 pack and add Bud to reg gas and probably work just as well!!!:cheers:
 
:agree2::agree2: I wasn't blaming CA for our ethanol just saying that Maine with a rather low population was jumping right on the clean air bandwagon follwing CAs example. Even though CA has umpty-bijillion more people.

Definately the corn lobby, the refinery and the ever amazing Green lobby.

Doing the math at 0.2 gallons back that renders a gain of 12.80 FLOZs per 128 FLOZs of fuel. Just a wisker more than a 12 FLOZ Budweiser per gallon af gasoline. It would be cheaper to buy a 30 pack and add Bud to reg gas and probably work just as well!!!:cheers:

I really need to do my part in this ....Im buying a still and going to make my own ......................

http://www.whiskeywise.com/Whiskey-still.html

.
 
Using Alkylate fuel, as most do in saws etc over here, would make the pump gas a non-issue, and be better for both the user and the environment as well! :givebeer:
 

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