What to charge?

[sbhooper]

A friend of mine does tree removal with some big skid steers. Once in a while, he has to cut some that are too big for his tree saw. This is usually big cottonwoods. I think that he is going to start asking me to help him and I have no idea how much to charge him for the job. It would just be felling and bucking them small enough to pile with his big loaders. He would be paying all living expenses for wherever we end up doing the jobs. I don't know whether to just decide on an hourly rate, or so much per tree. I cut some for him on a job here by my house just because I wanted to run my 441, so I know what to expect as far as dealing with the big cottonwoods.
Any ideas on this would be appreciated.

 

[northmanlogging]

figure an hourly rate, then figure how much time each tree is going to take, add insurance and how much yer butt is worth, multiply that by how scary the tree looks, then double everything.

 

[sbhooper]

That sounds good, but then I would have to subtract for the fun factor! Nothing like the crash of a big tree.

 

[imagineero]

That sounds good, but then I would have to subtract for the fun factor! Nothing like the crash of a big tree.

Sounds like a carton of beer is about what you're worth.

Shaun

 

[GASoline71]

A friend of mine does tree removal with some big skid steers. Once in a while, he has to cut some that are too big for his tree saw. This is usually big cottonwoods. I think that he is going to start asking me to help him and I have no idea how much to charge him for the job. It would just be felling and bucking them small enough to pile with his big loaders. He would be paying all living expenses for wherever we end up doing the jobs. I don't know whether to just decide on an hourly rate, or so much per tree. I cut some for him on a job here by my house just because I wanted to run my 441, so I know what to expect as far as dealing with the big cottonwoods. Any ideas on this would be appreciated.

I've been knockin' BIG cottonwoods down for eons. BIG ones can be brittle and very unpredictable on the stump. Especially when leaning. If these truly are BIG trees... they can kill you, which can ruin your fun day. Make sure you or the cat your workin' for has some kind of medical insurance.

Gary

 

[paccity]

like gary said, if they are big and probably rotten in the butt or tops or both. not to knock you down but if your asking how much you should be asking should you. if your skill level is high enough to do the job you should know what your worth. and factor in some manly perfume to cover the smell. don't let your ego over ride safety.

 

[Troy G]

That sounds good, but then I would have to subtract for the fun factor! Nothing like the crash of a big tree.

Hopefully the crash of a big tree hitting the targeted drop location. Who's insurance are you going to go through if that does not happen and heaven forbid someone gets hurt? My well being and who is going to have to pay up if something goes wrong is always on my mind. Make sure your arse is covered for things like that and do not charge for your man and saw hours if you are cutting for fun or getting firewood. I would also factor in what happens if your saw(s) get damaged. If you guys are good friends ask him what it is worth to him and decide from there.

 

[Frank Savage]

Been there, done it, although limitedly. When it gets serious (as with big cottonwoods or other woods of lower mechanical chracteristics, or in some populated/poluted areas with wires, nails and unpredictable rot), it´s way better not going through this as an "employe" of a friend-if you want to stay friends. Mostly it´s a tough, mainly mind- and backup-planning demanding job, while the demand, risks, near misses (esp. due to rot) making you to overcalculate everything in few revs of saw at WOT and small, but serious threats of sth going to f*-k up all previous planning are visible just and only to a trained eye, which´s hand have been there. I experienced a case where even a skilled full-time faller, who works (but) mostly in spruce and pine clearcuts hadn´t a sh*t of clue what the risks and problems ahead MIGHT be with a catfaced semi-double willow, which had 5´of the trunk burried in the mid of a pile of compost for several years. He was man enought to say he´d get killed at least two times...

So if you charge someone for the job, the abovementioned northmanlogging´s formula is the key, no substraction for funfactor, no retreat from the position possible (well, you may combine it thee times and give a "discount" in charging just the double...). Not a small fee, way higher where it becomes iffy when there´re money between friends. This funfactor can kill you, someone else or someone else´s whole life work and savings faster than bucking atop of unstable 20´windfall pile wearing greased slippers (which is mostly your own problem).

If you want to cut that wood for a friend-first, there must be enought time for you. No time pressures allowed, if I understand well that you don´t cut full time, not talking about the big and big, big sh*t wood. If any time pressure, it´s someone elses´s job-safer for you, your friend´s show and all relatives.
To the pay-modest living throug the job, gas, oil, none to one (or the number totaled by horseshoes in the wood etc) new chain per job in (even formerly) populated areas, extra insurance for you, extra insurance for your friend (as for the showrunner, if his current insurance might not cover what´s ahead) and maybe handyman´s pocket money for you atop. Nothing more.
As you describe it, you want to cut for the funfactor (and learning). So your friend is giving you the possibility, he must have some extra time and may have some extra costs. Your labor may be probably cheaper than outsourcing someone, your enthusiasm for such a wood might let him to take more jobs (and make more money) here and there. But still, it´s YOUR fun factor and "learning by fight" and HIS akind of risk of making the living (and need for longer times for finish).
If you want to stay friends and all healthy, take this.
If you want to make some money by such sawing, go on your own or get hired as a risky tree cutter by someone with whom you have some respect for each other, but your relation is mostly commercial.

The above paragraphs may seem weird, but just until things stops to be OK.



(I backed away from three cottonwood removal, albeit I trembled for over three years to climb and cut these 5´ DBH, 110´ high of 70´ of clear stem, 70-90´ wide crown trees. Two arborists shows and one more equipped with a high-lift platform failed due to damn tight space for machinery. My handshake slowed after careful measuring, even more after checking the probable health state by checking the soundness and hell-when I saw what the f**k randomly rotten were some 1,5´ thick limbs way up there, I was glad it´s not my problem how to cut them. I suggest it was of the nastiest jobs I have ever heard of).

 

[Oldtimer]

$100 per tree, and 10% of the cost of your insurance per job. So, if you drop 4 trees, and your insurance cost you $1000 for the year, charge $500.

 

[northmanlogging]

Mr. Savage nailed it, when working with friend, make it clear who is at risk before you even start your saw, his show his insurance etc. Cotton wood out here In the pnw is heavey wet and brittle, In the midwest I imagine its probably just as brittle just not as wet, (never cut any while I lived out that way). So trying any fancy swing cuts or wedging the tree against a lean is not something I try often with cotton wood since it usually fails anyway, the holding wood has a habit of just snapping long before you think it should, long before you're even ready for it, and if you're cutting on wet ground wear a rain suit cotton wood smells alot/exactly like a the south side of a north bound dog, other wise it is fun to make a Hel-of-racket though in'it!

 

[paccity]

 

[hammerlogging]

sounds to me like you'd be better off just bucking stems on the ground or cutting cookies just for kicks than dumping large POS stems if your primary interest is running a 441. your post is a long way from sounding like commercial falling concepts, doesn't mean it needs to be, just don't make it something its not, especially if you just don't need to be messing with it.

 

[802climber]

Maybe you should also add the cost of the 441 to the price. Be sure to plan your escape routes and backup plan(s) very thoroughly. They can be very unpredictable dangerous trees. There is good reason why climbers and fallers who do this every day are so cautious around this species.

 

[Jon1212]

A friend of mine does tree removal with some big skid steers. Once in a while, he has to cut some that are too big for his tree saw. This is usually big cottonwoods. I think that he is going to start asking me to help him and I have no idea how much to charge him for the job. It would just be felling and bucking them small enough to pile with his big loaders. He would be paying all living expenses for wherever we end up doing the jobs. I don't know whether to just decide on an hourly rate, or so much per tree. I cut some for him on a job here by my house just because I wanted to run my 441, so I know what to expect as far as dealing with the big cottonwoods.
Any ideas on this would be appreciated.

That sounds good, but then I would have to subtract for the fun factor! Nothing like the crash of a big tree.

Ahhh, the "fun factor" only adds to the cost, nothing is subtracted.

Last week was a year from my very expensive felling and bucking lesson, and I shall be paying that off over the rest of my mortal existence.

I volunteered to take down some beetle killed pine trees at a Church Girls Camp where my wife was the director for our area (Stake). The bigger tree was ove a very flat area, but the tree had some very stout branches that when dropped slowed it down to where it settled with the butt on the ground and the tip up in the air. I took the upper section off, and proceeded to limb the branches off of the trunk section that were pointing up, or straight out to the side. I have since learned that since the whole tree was being bucked up into firewood I would have been safer limbing and bucking from one end all the way down the length of the tree. Well I was standing about 20 feet up from the stump when the whole tree becam unbalanced, and since it was sitting up it didn't merely roll, it did a "pivot". I took a big step to my right, while sliding my right hand back to the rear of my saw handle, (just keeping away from the throttle). Well I missed getting completely clear by a foot, and I took the blow down the outside of my left shin, I heard a couple of things "snap", and felt a couple more "pop". I pulled the side of my boot free, and limped around a bit, a couple of guys asked me if I was alright ( I wasn't), but I said "yeah, I think it's just sprained." Well I walked on my leg, and finished the job in about 45 minutes, loaded my saws, and stuff in my truck, and drove myself two hours to the emergency room (yes, I called my wife, and no, she wasn't happy). Well here's the breakdown of the cost with really decent insurance when you fracture your fibula, break the back of your tibia off, tear four ligaments in your ankle, and separate your shinbones. I will always have some pain in my ankle, I will be more prone to arthritis, and I have about 85% mobilty in my left ankle. I can't find a cost for that, but here's the cash it cost me.

ER CoPay $150

Dr Visits $360 ($30 each X12, it took them 6 1/2 weeks to send me for an MRI, so lots of visits).

Surgery $500 (This is my Co Pay portion.)

I learned a lot from this experience, and I still enjoy getting out there, but I don't know that I will ever look at the process the same, which is a good thing because my wife, and six kids prefer that I stick around.

 

[GASoline71]

I can't argue that putting wood on the ground is fun. But a lot of cats forget that a tree can kill you, kill a bystander in the wrong area, or do massive amounts of damage to property.

My girlfriends 21 year old son was with me recently as I was fallin' some big Alder trees for firewood. He was telling me how he and his older brother used to fall trees for their mom for firewood a few years back. I explained to him how lucky he was to be alive (as I handed him a hardhat, which he looked at me funny when I told him to put it on). I showed him how I fall trees and he was amazed at how smoothly it went, and how easy I made it look. I had him bang on wedges as we wedged over a heavy leaner away from my shop. I was using the "Coos Bay" style fallin' technique for heavy head leaners... he couldn't believe that technique and wedges could get a leaning tree to go over without pullin' on it with a rope. As I was also tellin' him why he had a hardhat on... then a dead branch came out of the tree while he was pounding wedges. It landed about 10 feet from us. Wasn't huge, but would have stung if it hit one of us. Now he thought the hardhats were pretty cool.

I basically explained to him that I too was once in his shoes, and was taught by some experienced fallers that made me rethink my existence on this planet. Too many people think, "They're just trees... how hard can it be?" Just watch all the doofus idiots on youtube... it amazes me more people aren't killed.

Gary

 

[northmanlogging]

My grandpa got his in 1963, widow maker got him, never met him. Always wear yer hat, all ways look up and if some one is fallin trees don't go and say hi I have almost killed two people cause they didn't know what I was doing and wanted to watch I didn't even know they where there... I was pissed to say the least:msp_scared:

 

[Jon1212]

My grandpa got his in 1963, widow maker got him, never met him. Always wear yer hat, all ways look up and if some one is fallin trees don't go and say hi I have almost killed two people cause they didn't know what I was doing and wanted to watch I didn't even know they where there... I was pissed to say the least:msp_scared:

Man that's the stuff that makes ya' mad, and kinda freaks you out at the same time.

 

[sbhooper]

Sounds like a carton of beer is about what you're worth.

Shaun

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Sorry to offend your sensibilities. I wonder what value would be placed on you?

I asked the question because I wanted some honest input and there has been some good answers. I have dropped plenty of large cottonwoods and other trees, so I know the danger and how to approach most of them. What I consider large is probably not as big as some here deal with. Most of the trees are under 40 inches across and pretty tall.

I am not even sure that I am going to be asked to do the job, so I am not in a decision mode yet. And yes, I do enjoy cutting big trees and maybe it is because of the danger. If you do not enjoy that challenge, then you should not be doing it, as it cannot be taken lightly. Just because I happen to enjoy cutting bigger trees does not mean that I should quit doing it and just cut cookies with my saws. I cannot believe that someone is juvenile enough to even say that. You do not know me or my cutting ability, so keep the stupid comments out of it.

 

[802climber]

Man that's the stuff that makes ya' mad, and kinda freaks you out at the same time.

Yes, especially cutting on private land, some landowners sense of entitlement to be out there during logging just makes me crazy.

One of my worst so far was a guy who came out often enough I was always watching for him. I had a big oak tree with the cable in it, skidder putting tension on it, big notch in the front, bored in and starting to walk around when I see this guy just sitting less than 50 yds away with the tree faced right at him, on a GREEN JD tractor so he blends in....

I shut my saw off, and just waited for him to figure out... There were just no words.

 

[Jon1212]

Yes, especially cutting on private land, some landowners sense of entitlement to be out there during logging just makes me crazy.

One of my worst so far was a guy who came out often enough I was always watching for him. I had a big oak tree with the cable in it, skidder putting tension on it, big notch in the front, bored in and starting to walk around when I see this guy just sitting less than 50 yds away with the tree faced right at him, on a GREEN JD tractor so he blends in....

I shut my saw off, and just waited for him to figure out... There were just no words.

Oh there were words for that, but they would have negated your productivity.........LOL!!!

Good on you for having self control.

This Spring I was back up where I got my leg broke last Fall, and I was taking down some hazard trees that would end up blocking the trail down to the lake if they fell down hill. Well I did a height estimation, and clearance to the uphill side, and I had 15 feet to the back steps of a cabin, and I was targeting 30 feet to the left. The tree was about a 75 foot pine that was at least two years dead. I cut my notch, and had just started my back cut when I saw something white out of the corner of my left eye, I throttled off, and looked up the hill to see a 10 year old boy who had been helping his dad stain another cabin further up. I walked up the hill, and explained to him the danger, and asked that he please go back to where his dad was. It startled me, and made me keep one eye uphill the rest of the day. Fortunately my six kids have made me more patient with children, now if it had been an adult..................all bets are off.........LOL!!!