What You Should Do If You Get Hurt in the Woods When Alone

[jomoco]

Wait until help arrives?

How about cinchin it off, chucking him into a 4X4, and haulin azz to an ER?

Worked well for me now quite a few times...

jomoco

 

[jomoco]

Hey NorthManLogging,

What you're sayin bout direct pressure to minimize arterial bleeding is spot on and undoubtably true when it comes to chest punctures no doubt.

How you gonna put a tourniquet on a chest puncture? Direct pressure works, as long as it's able to give a bit with the breathing cycle.

Many years ago a Moto-X buddy of mine got too squirrelly on an extremely steep downhill section of a course we were riding, got too far into the weeds, and had a manzanita stub spear him off his bike, leaving him impaled through his chest protector, jersey and chest like a rag doll.

Being the next rider above and behind him I witnessed it happening, threw my bike down hill, rushed to his assistance, and physically pulled him off the manzanita stub.

At which point arterial blood sprayed profusely from the injury. Instinctively I ripped his chest protector off, got under his jersey and applied direct pressure to the wound with my right hand sufficient to stop the outward blood loss, while using my left hand to gain leverage leverage against his back. He complained violently bout not being able to breathe, but I knew he could because I could feel his chest expanding and retracting between my two hands. I was latched to him like a bulldog in full Moto-X regalia, and never felt his blows aimed at me thanks to helmet etc.

The nightmare was maintaining that pressure and coordinating the transport logistics during the crisis, even with six people and three vehicles assisting. We stuffed him on a lounge chair, got him into the back of a Ford Ranchero for transport, but the driver was so distraught he slid off the main road into deep sand and got stuck. The victim's brother was in the back of the Ranchero with me, sobbing in fear of his brother dying, not comprehending that unless he went back to the track and got a friend's 4x4 ASAP, his brother really would die. I had to let go with my left hand at his back long enough to slap him out of his stupor and run back to the track.

Meanwhile the driver of the Ranchero was so furious with himself for running off the road and getting stuck, he was doing the old forward gear and floor it, quickly followed by reverse gear and floor it. After a few minutes of this he managed to creep back onto the main road and complete our trip to the Apple Valley Hospital.

Well over 30 minutes went by before he was in the ER's hands. I distinctly remembered getting there still latched to my riding buddy like a leach, demanding who the doc was that'd take my spot applying pressure to the wound? As he stepped next to me in the ER, saying yes I can relieve you, the blood spray hitting his clean gown as his rubber gloved hands replaced my leather gloved hand.

Lucky for the victim, that branch just punctured his ribs and chest, barely scraping his lung on that side, or he'd of been a dead door nail within a few minutes of the accident.

So yeah, direct pressure on arterial bleeding works. But a truly punctured lung demands some kinda seal, like a Baggie, Saran Wrap or something to keep from suckin air, ASAP.

Stayin calm during these types of traumatic incidents is the key to a successful outcome in some cases, atleast in my exposure to them over the years.

jomoco

 

[northmanlogging]

Nice story.

The correct thing would have been to leave the manzanita javelin where it was, saw it off or break it off whatever, let the stick stop the bleading. But then I'm not a doctor just a guy that pays attention to first aid and mountain rescue classes.

 

[Gologit]

Nice story.

The correct thing would have been to leave the manzanita javelin where it was, saw it off or break it off whatever, let the stick stop the bleading. But then I'm not a doctor just a guy that pays attention to first aid and mountain rescue classes.

Well said...and the correct procedure, too.

 

[Florida saw boy]

I always carry gauze my cell and a whistle. Stay safe out there.

 

[BeatCJ]

There is more to it than just wrapping a belt around the limb and tightening down until the bleeding stops, you have to find a pressure point for one. And you can't leave it on until the ambulance shows up, causing said blood toxins. In fact its better to just use direct pressure, if it don't stop the bleeding apply more pressure, at the very least it will slow the bleeding until help can arrive.

The most current research is showing that tourniquets are not near as bad as we were taught. The military has demonstrated that many people can receive a wound requiring a tourniquet, an injury that would have resulted in life threatening bleeding without a tourniquet, and remain combat effective. There are a couple of commercially available tourniquets that can be self applied in a matter of seconds, and work extremely well. Also, unless there are other factors leading to injury, a tourniquet can remain in place for up to 6 hours without permanent injury as a result of the tourniquet. I think that if you are going to be working alone, with equipment that can cause that kind of injury, it's probably a good idea to carry one. I personally like the CAT: http://www.amazon.com/Military-Issue-Combat-Application-Tourniquet/dp/B003EGD8YC

 

[tomsteve]

I believe in any situation an injury happens that keeping calm is very important for both the injured and those around them. A lil story:
Man I know was workin at his daughters house doing some finish carpentry in her basement. One interior door needed to have the top trimmed down. Instead of going the safe approach and taking the door off the hinges and trimming it on saw horses, he wedged the guard on his circ saw and went to town with the door still hanging. At the end of the cut, forgetting he had the guard wedged, he rested the saw against his upper leg, severing the femoral artery.
Yelled upstairs for his wife, who upon getting to the bottom of the stairs, saw the blood and passed out.
Lo and behold, lil 12 year old granddaughter was home. Came downstairs, grabbed phone called 911 put it on speaker, applied pressure and tournequet, kept grandpa calm and when grandma came to, went. To work calming her.
The paramedics( and I think everyone) was completely amazed this lil 12 year old handled it so calmly. And her reply when told she did a great job?
" what good would freaking out do? Then there would have been 3 ambulances in the drveway!!!"
Today that lil girl is an ER nurse.

 

[RVALUE]

Although I'm not an expert on the subject, I just wanted to discuss a few things about it.
First of all, keep your cool and if you still got two legs and a heart beat, you'll probably be ok.
You can lose alot of blood and still live.
Finding the trail out can be the biggest problem, that's why snow is a good thing as you can sometimes follow your back trail.
When hurt you'll have mega adrenalin, so use that to your advantage and when and if you find help, be chipper and laugh a bit, that will help the first responder to act fast and not freak out.
Saw injuries are mostly just superficial, so keep your cool then too.
Most injuries are not life threatening and those that are will be read about in the news.
Once again, keep your cool and enjoy the adrenalin rush and the warm feeling of the blood.
John

I've had a few injuries. Twice I was in more danger with the person driving me to the Hospital (that was freaking out) than the injury caused.

 

[Pulp]

Let's get real: the only way , only way you're going to learn about emergency care is to TRAIN.
You want to "ignore" or flame, fine. But listen carefully to the few,few posts that deal with real world situations, their experience, their background.
Rural and wilderness response to emergencies is not your macho approach or knowing everything about nothing or pretending.
Read first the deadly serious detailed manuals on EMT Levels up to Paramedic qualifications. Ever even looked at them ?
Do the "ignore" fanatics with all their bloated experience have any SERE or mil corpsman duty ?
What do First Responders actually have to do ? The ignorance shown here on real-life Triage is incredible.
When you can't see through learning and training for that real life or death situation, be quiet and learn from those who have been.
Example: CPR techniques and CAT usage change almost by the year. You have the hands-on training for that ? It takes many many days.
Triage in an actual rural/wilderness setting, hours from EMT or ER or evac assist takes knowledge and experience to do....or not.
And, forget these stupid imagined legalities: never, ever leave anyone that you could possibly save. It goes back to the standard of
care: never leave anyone behind, dead, or wounded. There's no macho in emergencies.

Now ignore, delete, flame.....

 

[Gologit]

Pulp...

You made some valid points. What is it exactly that you'd like to see done differently or better and what do you see as the major mistakes being made?

 

[slowp]

In our state, people who work in the woods are required to take first aid training every year. I only had to go every other year, but it still seemed like an ordeal. I kind of feel sorry for the instructors. First aid is a dry topic.

Pulp, most of us don't have the time or inclination to become EMTs. Are you an EMT? If so, you should know how much time and effort that took. Now please tell me when somebody who lives an hour out from hospitals, works all day and sometimes on weekends, is going to find the time to reach that level? That's the Real World in my world. I don't know where you are.

 

[BeatCJ]

Let's get real: the only way , only way you're going to learn about emergency care is to TRAIN.

What do First Responders actually have to do ?

It takes many many days.

In general, I agree with you. I disagree that it takes many MANY DAYS to train someone to the level of First Aid that people need to have a positive impact on someone that is hurt in a logging accident. I know of several of my students that have saved lives after a basic First Aid CPR course. I taught a bunch of 7th graders, (over the years) and they retained enough of what I gave them in a week of 90 minute classes. It makes me proud to see a couple of peop,e still walking around because of that time.

As an Instructor, it IS difficult to keep people's attention, and make sure they aren't bored. I think that in general, people that are doing that instruction as a job do a poor job. I also wonder how many of those instructors have "seen the elephant".

 

[Pulp]

Damn. We're talking Emergency Care at a level that is in an outback, rural, hours from professional assistance.
No you fools don't have to do the EMT route; it takes many many many days to work up to the highest level.
First Aid stuff is just that --bandage care that usually is no where near saving anybody. The Red Cross and other bureaucratic
stuff is CYA, no more.
Stop bleeding. Clear an airway. If available, learn how to use an AED. Practice injections such as insulin, anaphalactic. Prevent shock. Save the life......or know when to stop. It's basic triage.
All that takes time, takes experience, the will to learn what you don't know.
Go to a ski area where the patrols are being trained. Take a few hours in an urban ER one Sat. night. Ride an ambulance. Talk to your fav cop/sheriff or F.D. how they're trained.
And please, don't believe this BS about legalities....it never happens; . You're on a work site miles from help, that logger is bleeding out, do something.
Can't take a few hours off your sooooo busy days to learn how to protect yourself and others ? Time to give it up. Your choice.
Yup, the elephant will arrive....sometime in your life.

 

[BeatCJ]

Damn. We're talking Emergency Care at a level that is in an outback, rural, hours from professional assistance.
No you fools don't have to do the EMT route; it takes many many many days to work up to the highest level.

Ooops, just lost all my respect. No need to go calling people names.

First Aid stuff is just that --bandage care that usually is no where near saving anybody. The Red Cross and other bureaucratic
stuff is CYA, no more.

Again I disagree. Stopping bleeding IS saving someone. How long does it take to bleed out from an arterial bleed? Not long at all. A clean cut most times will tamponade, but chain very rarely cuts cleanly.

Stop bleeding. Clear an airway. If available, learn how to use an AED. Practice injections such as insulin, anaphalactic. Prevent shock. Save the life......or know when to stop. It's basic triage.

NEVER, EVER use insulin as an emergency medicine. If you don't know why not, then you shouldn't be posting in this thread. And no, it's not triage. Triage means "to Sort". Basics, maybe so.

...snip...
Go to a ski area where the patrols are being trained. Take a few hours in an urban ER one Sat. night. Ride an ambulance. Talk to your fav cop/sheriff or F.D. how they're trained.

Yeah, probably not going to happen anymore post 9/11. Our EMT Students have to undergo background checks to be allowed to do those things any more.

And please, don't believe this BS about legalities....it never happens; . You're on a work site miles from help, that logger is bleeding out, do something.
Can't take a few hours off your sooooo busy days to learn how to protect yourself and others ? Time to give it up. Your choice.
Yup, the elephant will arrive....sometime in your life.

Who said anything about legalities? I carry a significant amount of insurance personally, in addition to the protection I get from my agency and MPD. My personal insurance is mostly for vicarious liability as a supervisor and instructor. Good Samaritan Laws are pretty much universal, and well thought out.

I know, I know, BA in the flesh, spewing nonsense. Sorry, don't feed the Troll, I know.

 

[Gologit]

I know, I know, BA in the flesh, spewing nonsense. Sorry, don't feed the Troll, I know.

You're right about Pulp being Brush Ape. It was bad enough when he was just being his usual obnoxious self but it was relatively harmless. Irritating but harmless

Now however, he's posing as some kind of expert on trauma medicine and the advice he's giving is dangerous. Remember "first do no harm"? This guy is harm personified.

 

[BeatCJ]

I only made the connection from a comment elsewhere. As a Fire/EMS professional, the errors bother me.

 

[slowp]

I only made the connection from a comment elsewhere. As a Fire/EMS professional, the errors bother me.

Unfortunately, those errors will not affect the troll. He's a jerk. A real jerk.
I'm having a hard time not busting out laughing. The picture of the gypo logger bothering me all day to use his epi pen so it wouldn't be wasted (humor on his part) has popped back into my head. He'd looked at the expiration date and it was that day. So, while we chose tailholds, I had to listen to " Are you sure you don't want to use my epi pen? I don't want to see it go to waste." Over and over. All the time I was out there.

 

[Gologit]

I only made the connection from a comment elsewhere. As a Fire/EMS professional, the errors bother me.

It should bother you. It sure bothers me.

 

[BeatCJ]

Unfortunately, those errors will not affect the troll. He's a jerk. A real jerk.
I'm having a hard time not busting out laughing. The picture of the gypo logger bothering me all day to use his epi pen so it wouldn't be wasted (humor on his part) has popped back into my head. He'd looked at the expiration date and it was that day. So, while we chose tailholds, I had to listen to " Are you sure you don't want to use my epi pen? I don't want to see it go to waste." Over and over. All the time I was out there.

Meh, expiration is over-rated. If you need some, I think I have a few expired ones around... Just for a little pick me up. Probably works better than coffee.

 

[madhatte]

Yo, Pulp -- are you a Brush Ape alt? If you are, I bet you're gonna get banned soon. Best mind your P's and Q's, starting with knocking off giving bogus emergency advice. Consider this a first and last warning.