When it goes wrong, ALL WRONG!

[Chris-PA]

Since all the ash trees are dying around here I spend a lot of time cutting them up for firewood. Most come down on their own, but lately I've had to drop a bunch of them. So many of them have done unpredictable things this summer that I've gotten downright paranoid. It is often quite hard to tell if there's a hollow spot or if it's a bit punky. By the time your saw hits that soft spot and you can tell it may already be moving. That, and dead trees with no limbs sometimes have nothing to shift their weight around - so instead of starting to move more slowly in a predictable way they drop fast, and often not where you wanted them to go but rather at the whim of winds and such. I had one sit there and wobble around for quite a while after it had started to fall where I had aimed it. In the end it dropped 90 degrees off from where it was supposed to go. I just ran like heck and was nowhere near it when it did go.

 

[Whitespider]

This is the 3rd account Spider of your close calls. While all are glad that you and yours came out it safely, it's time to go to meeting: learn how to cut safely and efficiently.

3rd close call? What were the other two close calls?

And how would training have changed this? I did everything correctly… used the proper face cut… proper back cut… felling wedge… stepped back at a 45-degree angle, walking backwards, keeping an eye on the tree … looked up to watch for falling debris… and reacted when said debris came my way…
Now, as far as my son being there… it isn’t as though I loaded him up and took him out with me. The woodlot surrounds my house and I have a road (for the pickup if needed) and several trails (the tractor and trailer can navigate) criss-crossing throughout. The woodlot is just an extension of our yard, and my son drives his battery-powered toy Gator through those trails. He ain’t babied or coddled, and he‘s extremely independent… he is allowed to “play” in the woodlot, per se. He and his siblings run around in the woodlot with our golf cart and bicycles, play hide-n-seek, build forts, walk the dogs, and whatnot. He had driven his Gator out to see what I was up to, and he knows not to approach when the saw is running… he had only stepped closer after the saw was shut-down and the tree had fallen into the branches… and he was still a reasonably safe distance back (still a few steps behind me, just as he has been taught). Yes, I know anything can happen when felling… but having a log launched from upper branches, as though from a catapult? C’mon, would one-hundred yards be far enough back for ya’? I never turn my back to a falling tree like I see many do… and if I would have turned my back, in this instance, I and my son would have gotten creamed. It’s only because I did everything right that I was able to react in time, just barely… but still in time.

And I still would like to know what the other two “close calls” to my (or anyone else’s) well-being were?

I fall a lot of trees… huge oaks as large as 4-feet in diameter, to big standing dead elm, to just nuisance trees… and although I’ve seen a lot of strange things happen… well I ain’t never seen anything like a large, heavy log thrown through the air like this. Ain’t no training gonna’ prepare you for that…

 

[Guido Salvage]

Once again, a 3 year old should not be anywhere near an active falling zone. At that age they lack the cognitive skills to understand the concept of danger or the dynamics of physics. Looking after a active child is a full time job and you can't do that while you are attempting to drop a tree.

Do yourself (and your family) a favor and keep the child away from your work zone. You already learned that danger can happen anytime, why tempt fate and lives by not learning from the experience?

 

[J1m]

While I agree things in this scenario could have gone much worse for the OP and his son - the fact of the matter is that he averted danger and lived to tell about it.

And where did he decide to share his experience? Right here on the AS. For all the world and everyone else to think about and learn from. He could have just kept the episode to himself - but he didn't. He obviously thought the scenario serious enough to want others to share in his learning.

What do several self-important, know-it-all, do-gooder, holier-than-thou, lecturers do? They proceed to second guess, debase and degrade the man for the effort instead of applauding the courage shown by sharing it here.

Come on guys, really?

Whitespider: Let me be the first to thank you for posting this.

 

[MARAZONAGT]

Spidey already said his young lad was away from the action already, also said the young boy has free will perdy much! this sounds like the first close call to me and thankfully his spidey senses were workin just fine. There is some merit to furthering ones safety training though, spidey should be the new safety mascot for all climbing related safety events! right on!

:spiderman:

 

[logbutcher]

Let's get the "do good, lecturer, know it all, holier than thou, etc..." and the debase degrade BS out of the way. Not the case.
He shares, I share, you share. Take it or not.

Now Spider: the 3 big ones plus. Look over the posts.
1. This one.
2. Power line cutting.
3. Your use of truck, chains.
4. Technique of hinge size in obviously diseased/rotten wood.
5. Watching until the wedges fall out of the cut ( NOT what and how used )

The point is when you share your errors, we can learn from them, understand that there are times to know when to "not die on that hill", when to retreat, and not be macho about needing some input/training/expertise at some point. This is not debase, this is reality FROM WHAT YOU POST.

Sounds scoldy, but more like "I've been there." Take it or not.

 

[MARAZONAGT]

I'm not going to beat you up for having your kid with you...God knows you've done enough of that already...I'm just glad to hear you and your son came away unscathed and I'm sure you'll be a proponent of safety in the future.

God was looking down on you and your boy.....thank Him if you have not yet.

:worship:

 

[Whitespider]

Good Lord! Some of you guys just blow my mind away.
Maybe you should try to remember that you were not there.

So, Guido Salvage, if “a three-year-old should not be anywhere near an active falling zone”… just what exactly is “an active falling zone”? How large is it? How far away do you have to stand to be out of the “active falling zone”? What is considered “near an active falling zone”? Does this mean a three-year-old should never be “near” any sort of danger zone? Like for example a road… how far back from the road does that three-year-old have to be before he is no longer considered “near it? It’s ridiculous to put a set quantity on anything like what you say… each situation requires individual evaluation by the supervising adult, not by some after-the-fact arm-chair referee.

And you logbutcher… You said three “close calls”, but you still only list one (this one). Your other four examples are from one post in which everything went exactly as planned, no “close calls” of any sort! And even those examples are nothing out-of –the-ordinary… What? Trucks, chains, cables and pulleys shouldn’t be used for pulling? And there was absolutely nothing obviously diseased or rotten about that tree! In fact, go back and look at the pictures again and you’ll see where I “ringed” it intentionally to kill it about a year ago… so it would drop most of its weight before I took it down. And I never said I watched “until the wedges fall out of the cut”… what I said was “when the wedges fall out I hit the throttle”.

And, as far as your comments Del_Corbin… show me where in that thread I ever used “snatching and shock loading of the tree”. I even said I slowly alternated between tensioning the cable and back-cutting. Only after the tree begins moving in the intended direction (when the wedges fall out) did I say I used the full throttle… and then the full throttle is used to minimize the amount of time for the tree to do something unintended. Yeah, I suppose my rigging could have failed (highly unlikely, but I've learned to never say never)… but then again the brakes on your truck could fail the next time you’re driving down a hill with a load on… So, you gonna’ quit driving your truck? If we stop doing everything that has a “could” or “maybe” attached to it… well, I ain’t gonna’ live in a glass house either, and if you do you shouldn’t be throwing stones.

I don’t mind constructive or helpful criticism, but some of you guys seem to read what you want to read, rather than what is actually written. Then you want to analyze, criticize, point fingers, attack my parenting skills (this ain't the first time for that and I’m in my mid-50’s and have raised other children, successfully) and then pump-up your own lacking self-esteem with some sort of hind-sight, arm-chair coaching of an event you never even attended… go screw yourselves.

 

[s219]

And how would training have changed this? I did everything correctly… used the proper face cut… proper back cut… felling wedge… stepped back at a 45-degree angle, walking backwards, keeping an eye on the tree … looked up to watch for falling debris… and reacted when said debris came my way…

Far be it from me to give advice, since I make my fair share of mistakes, but listen -- you knowingly felled a tree into a fall zone with other trees. That means you were gambling with an entanglement or throwback. The first is an inconvenience that can become dangerous. The second is *very* dangerous as you found out. When throwback occurs, limbs and tops can catapault and boomerang at high speed and out of control. You're lucky you dodged this one. The proper solution would be to not risk entanglement or throwback in the first place. Fell into a clear fall zone (make one if you need to). You say you did all the cutting correctly, but you took a big risk to start off with a poorly planned felling.

I fall a lot of trees… huge oaks as large as 4-feet in diameter, to big standing dead elm, to just nuisance trees… and although I’ve seen a lot of strange things happen… well I ain’t never seen anything like a large, heavy log thrown through the air like this. Ain’t no training gonna’ prepare you for that…

I haven't done all the things on your list, but I know about throwback because of training -- so it *can* prepare you for that. Heck, you don't even need training. Just read up on felling analysis and safety online. You should be well acquanted with concepts like entanglement and throwback if you're felling in an area with a lot of other trees. You might decide to keep taking the risks, but at least you'll be educated about it.

Cheers!

 

[Steve2910]

Good Lord! Some of you guys just blow my mind away.
Maybe you should try to remember that you were not there.

So, Guido Salvage, if “a three-year-old should not be anywhere near an active falling zone”… just what exactly is “an active falling zone”? How large is it? How far away do you have to stand to be out of the “active falling zone”? What is considered “near an active falling zone”? Does this mean a three-year-old should never be “near” any sort of danger zone? Like for example a road… how far back from the road does that three-year-old have to be before he is no longer considered “near it? It’s ridiculous to put a set quantity on anything like what you say… each situation requires individual evaluation by the supervising adult, not by some after-the-fact arm-chair referee.

And you logbutcher… You said three “close calls”, but you still only list one (this one). Your other four examples are from one post in which everything went exactly as planned, no “close calls” of any sort! And even those examples are nothing out-of –the-ordinary… What? Trucks, chains, cables and pulleys shouldn’t be used for pulling? And there was absolutely nothing obviously diseased or rotten about that tree! In fact, go back and look at the pictures again and you’ll see where I “ringed” it intentionally to kill it about a year ago… so it would drop most of its weight before I took it down. And I never said I watched “until the wedges fall out of the cut”… what I said was “when the wedges fall out I hit the throttle”.

And, as far as your comments Del_Corbin… show me where in that thread I ever used “snatching and shock loading of the tree”. I even said I slowly alternated between tensioning the cable and back-cutting. Only after the tree begins moving in the intended direction (when the wedges fall out) did I say I used the full throttle… and then the full throttle is used to minimize the amount of time for the tree to do something unintended. Yeah, I suppose my rigging could have failed (highly unlikely, but I've learned to never say never)… but then again the brakes on your truck could fail the next time you’re driving down a hill with a load on… So, you gonna’ quit driving your truck? If we stop doing everything that has a “could” or “maybe” attached to it… well, I ain’t gonna’ live in a glass house either, and if you do you shouldn’t be throwing stones.

I don’t mind constructive or helpful criticism, but some of you guys seem to read what you want to read, rather than what is actually written. Then you want to analyze, criticize, point fingers, attack my parenting skills (this ain't the first time for that and I’m in my mid-50’s and have raised other children, successfully) and then pump-up your own lacking self-esteem with some sort of hind-sight, arm-chair coaching of an event you never even attended… go screw yourselves.

Mid 50s w/ a 3 year old... you're more ambitious than I am!

 

[Whitespider]

...The proper solution would be to not risk entanglement or throwback in the first place...

Well, that's not quite accurate. First, there was no option to make a clear fall zone... at least not without sacrificing very large, healthy, old-growth trees (which presents different hazards). Yes, if possible avoid felling trees into other trees, but if not possible there are guidelines to follow (as per OSHA)... which I did, to the letter.

• Throwback Hazard - As the tree falls through other trees or lands on objects, those objects or branches may get thrown back toward the logger.
• Ways to Eliminate or Avoid - If possible, avoid felling into other trees or onto objects. Don't turn your back on the tree as it falls (I never turn my back), and look up as you escape along the retreat path (exactly as I did).

According to OSHA the "proper" solution is to avoid when possible... but if not possible, keep your darn fool head in the game. And because I did everything correctly, kept my head in the game so to say, no one was hurt... What if I would have turned my back, or not been looking up? Y'all need to quit looking for what I did wrong and concentrate on what I did right.

 

[thepheniox]

Yes you did something's right and I know your getting beat up here. All the training I've had has taught me to keep everyone at least twice the distance as the tree is tall. Fifty foot tree equals 100 foot safety zone in all directions. It's great to have the kids out there with you but I would wait until after the felling. I don't even let my friends within my safety zone when we are harvesting the trees in the forest.

 

[stumpy75]

Since all the ash trees are dying around here I spend a lot of time cutting them up for firewood. Most come down on their own, but lately I've had to drop a bunch of them. So many of them have done unpredictable things this summer that I've gotten downright paranoid. It is often quite hard to tell if there's a hollow spot or if it's a bit punky. By the time your saw hits that soft spot and you can tell it may already be moving. That, and dead trees with no limbs sometimes have nothing to shift their weight around - so instead of starting to move more slowly in a predictable way they drop fast, and often not where you wanted them to go but rather at the whim of winds and such. I had one sit there and wobble around for quite a while after it had started to fall where I had aimed it. In the end it dropped 90 degrees off from where it was supposed to go. I just ran like heck and was nowhere near it when it did go.

I have had the same problems with the dead ash around here. I think it's because there is almost no weight up top to really get them moving. Without a doubt, all the ash I'm cutting now get several wedges, and I'll pull them over if I can. And they tend to get hung up easier, possibly because of the lack of weight in the crown. That's my theory anyhow...

For the OP, glad everything worked out ok. Scary incident. Sometime, things just happen as you are falling trees. Sounds like you did just about everything right, but sometimes, the unexpected happens... Some accidents are NOT preventable!

I'm one of those people who makes sure I have an escape route, and I do back up a good 10-15' as the tree starts to fall(usually with saw in hand). Had too many of them come off the stump and jump back closer than I liked. And I never take my eyes off of it until it's on the ground, or hung up solid. Then, I don't move in to look at it for about 5 minutes. This break time gives things time to settle, loaded branches the time to break and me to look for any widowmakers. Good time to grab a drink of water before you start the next phase. Anyway, that's how I was taught, but I know each of us probably has a different way... And each different way may very well be correct for a given situation.

And although I do practice all of this, I have a hardhat with a large dent in it hanging in my garage from a throwback I never saw coming. My partner saw it at the last second before it hit me. Things happen...

 

[Whitespider]

Yeah, the “twice the distance as the tree is tall” rule is a good one, but it doesn’t fit all situations. Again, you had to have been there. The “OSHA” rule puts the feller in charge of the actual safety zone, unless the felling requires a team effort:
“No employee shall approach a feller closer than two tree lengths of trees being felled until the feller has acknowledged that it is safe to do so, unless the employer demonstrates that a team of employees is necessary to manually fell a particular tree.”

The standing rule of approach (unknowingly to me) for my children (and wife) is to never approach when the saw is running. If the saw is running they are to stay on the trail, or if the tractor and trailer are parked on the trail they are not to go past it. When the saw is shut down they should vocally let me know of their presence.
If I am aware of their presence, they are to stay in an area (or out of an area) designated by me until the saw is shut down, and/or until the tree has stopped moving when felling. (This rule has been modified after this instance; they will now wait until I vocally OK any movement into, or out of an area.)

This particular tree was standing next to one of my side trails, thirty-some feet from the main “road” in the woodlot. After evaluating the tree, the lean and the underbrush, and as the feller (and father) fully aware of possible dangers (my main concern was “kickback” when the tree fell into the others) I determined that the safest place for my son (reasonably, and where I could still see him) was to be standing back on the main “road” next to, and slightly behind a large elm tree of about 2.5-feet in diameter. Now, y’all can say the “safest” place would have been back at the house… but I reject that notion, if we try to keep our children absolutely 100 percent free from any danger they would never be allowed to leave moms skirts, and they’d never learn anything about the real world. And he followed the “rules”, moving only after the saw was shut down and the tree had stopped falling… although the that turned out to be temporary; hence the modification of the rule.

And about the “real world”… life in the “real world” means you learn daily; as you grow older experience, and experiences continuously teach you things. I learned, he learned… and we modified one of our “rules of living in the real world” as a result. What’s really funny about some of these replies is that even his mom didn’t get her panties all-bunched-up when he told her about his experience; she just said, “Well, I hope you both learned something today.” Like I said… He ain’t coddled.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Full disclosure: I've done stupid stuff before, with remarkably similar results. See here: http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/116653.htm

My three-year-old was out with me, and as always I have him stand well back during felling (he was a good thirty-foot back).

… HOLY CRAP, he’s moved closer to get a better view!

Nobody injured, no equipment damage, and I didn’t need to pull the tree down… but still. I don’t have any idea how long I stood there looking at that log, shaking, sweat pouring off me, clinging to my little boy… Damn scary experience… Damn scary.

Thirty feet is too close, 3 or 30 years old, as you found out.

The last paragraph says a lot. Many of your replies since this post are "tough guy I can do it, F- you and your advice" posts. Reread your first one a couple times, remember how close it was to truly "all going wrong" and learn from it.

Now, as far as my son being there… it isn’t as though I loaded him up and took him out with me. ... He had driven his Gator out to see what I was up to, and he knows not to approach when the saw is running… he had only stepped closer after the saw was shut-down and the tree had fallen into the branches… and he was still a reasonably safe distance back (still a few steps behind me, just as he has been taught). ... C’mon, would one-hundred yards be far enough back for ya’?

I fall a lot of trees… huge oaks as large as 4-feet in diameter, to big standing dead elm, to just nuisance trees… and although I’ve seen a lot of strange things happen… well I ain’t never seen anything like a large, heavy log thrown through the air like this. Ain’t no training gonna’ prepare you for that…

Yes, 100 yards aughta do it - but 3 year olds (yes yours included, I don't care how well behaved he is) are about as unpredictable as a bull. IF you'd trust him to run a woodchipper unsupervised, then you can trust him by your falling. He is NOT supervised while your attention is on the tree, and anything could cause him to go where he's not supposed to be.

Also, I don't care how big of trees you can fall, the little ones can kill ya just as dead as the monsters.

Now, y’all can say the “safest” place would have been back at the house… but I reject that notion, if we try to keep our children absolutely 100 percent free from any danger they would never be allowed to leave moms skirts, and they’d never learn anything about the real world.

He absolutely doesn't need to be kept 100% safe, but having him around one of the most dangerous jobs there are, is flat stupid. Kinda like teaching em to respect fire by giving em matches and gasoline.

My opinion only. If you don't like it, tough. Some of the people on this thread, myself included, may sound crass or condescending, but we're trying to help. Lose the tough guy attitude, learn from your mistakes, and every trip to the woods will be a little safer than the last.

 

[thepheniox]

Sorry I don't really understand talking OSHA rules then showing up with a three year old child. I also don't want to sound like I'm saying what's best. It's just my opinion that a three year old shouldn't be around when felling trees. I admire people that get their kids out doing things with them. It just seems like the lesson learned should be wait until the trees are on the ground before bringing the kids out. Again that's just my opinion.

When I was young I remember the time out in the woods with my dad getting firewood. It was great. The one thing I don't remember is watching the trees fall. Good on you getting him out there just be careful.

 

[logbutcher]

Full disclosure: I've done stupid stuff before, with remarkably similar results. .

Thirty feet is too close, 3 or 30 years old, as you found out.


The last paragraph says a lot. Many of your replies since this post are "tough guy I can do it, F- you and your advice" posts. Reread your first one a couple times, remember how close it was to truly "all going wrong" and learn from it.

My opinion only. If you don't like it, tough. Some of the people on this thread, myself included, may sound crass or condescending, but we're trying to help. Lose the tough guy attitude, learn from your mistakes, and every trip to the woods will be a little safer than the last.

Yesiree. Well said.

 

[Guido Salvage]

So, Guido Salvage, if “a three-year-old should not be anywhere near an active falling zone” just what exactly is “an active falling zone”? How large is it? How far away do you have to stand to be out of the “active falling zone”? What is considered “near an active falling zone”? Does this mean a three-year-old should never be “near” any sort of danger zone?

With the size trees you are dropping, NO ONE OTHER THAN YOURSELF SHOULD BE IN THE CUTTING ZONE. I would consider 1.5 times the height of the tree being cut to be an active falling zone. Keeping people, animals and equipment outside this distance will prevent anything from being hit by the tree being dropped or any debris that might emanate from it. Danger is relative, but at 3 years old a child does not have the cognitive skills to recognize it. Part of being a parent involves understanding and mitigating danger to your family and protecting them so as to not needlessly put them in harms way.

Like for example a road… how far back from the road does that three-year-old have to be before he is no longer considered “near it? It’s ridiculous to put a set quantity on anything like what you say… each situation requires individual evaluation by the supervising adult, not by some after-the-fact arm-chair referee.

BINGO! WHERE WAS THE SUPERVISION?

In your own words:

I spin around and take off running… see my little boy standing there… HOLY CRAP, he’s moved closer to get a better view! I dropped the saw and scooped him up on my way by. That branch came crashing down right where he, and I, were standing… missing my running person by just a foot or two.

As my initial post indicated, cutting and supervision of a 3 year old child both require your full time attention. Try to combine both and you get the very narrowly averted disaster you have described.

LEAVE THE KID AT HOME. He will have plenty of opportunities to learn about woodcutting later in life BUT only if he stays alive to learn about them. Lots of good advice has been given here, please read and heed the suggestions from others in order to prevent any future accidents.

 

[TMFARM 2009]

all i can say is ouch... and we all learn from our mistakes... thanks for posting anyhow...i see people do stupid stuff all the time, but most dont admit it.. you know what you did right and wrong, live and learn.. but live to tell it...stay safe.

 

[AIM]

I pretty much knew the day this post came up that the troll would get fed.