Modifying a saw for extreme conditions science work

[bigchuck]

Hello All. Hoping someone(s) might have some insight on my chainsaw struggles.

I study glaciers, and historically, we have mostly collected samples with a hollow-core drill. More and more, though, my research group is finding that we are having trouble collecting samples in some of the locations we would like - the drills get stuck, ice shatters, etc. With my background as an arborist, my research group leader asked if I'd be willing to try getting samples with a chainsaw. Of course, I was delighted to. We have used saws on 5 expeditions now, and we have had mixed results, but the saws have saved our butts a couple of times. However, I am finding that saws (unsurprisingly) are wearing quickly, and performing sub-optimally. I am wondering if folks here could offer any thoughts on equipment or modifications so we can get better results. Note, I have searched the forums and found some helpful information. I don't think anyone has written about this combined set of problems, er, challenges before though.....

First, we work in the cold or wet or both, always. (glaciers, ya know). I cut lots of trees in the cold and wet, and these are not especially a problem, except for bar-oil related issues noted below.

Second, we work up high much of the time. Like, 19-20,000 feet high. Our next trip is going to require sawing at 28,000+ ft. Power is a problem. Getting carb settings right is a problem. I'm willing to do some porting, mod the muffler, put in magic unobtanium piston rings if I can get these saws to run at 20k+. I'm just not sure what would work best.

Because we are measuring for trace concentrations of chemicals, we need to minimize contamination. That means no bar oil. Nothing at all. At the end of the day, bars and chains come off the saw, any remaining snow and ice gets picked or blown out and then they get packed in heavy plastic bags with 96% alcohol until needed again to prevent rust. Anything else I can do to minimize oil/grease contamination is a benefit.

We are only cutting ice. So far the standard .325 Stihl carbide chain seems to be doing fine. It's certainly not the weak point in the system.

Any help anyone can offer would be appreciated. Thank you all kindly.

-Charles

 

[holeycow]

this is a conundrum. An interesting one. I have no ideas.

They cut rock with diamond coated cords/cables...

bore many small holes in a pattern (say, circular) to produce a "chunk" to extract.

it sounds like shallow sampling, yes? And you need to maintain the integrity of the "chunks", yes?

somebody has a way...

the 28000' has gotta be a conundrum in itself.

My initial guess is that a chainsaw might not be the tool.

you can cut ice like crazy with steam...proper high pressure boiler, explosion potential steam. Good steam has very little water in it.

 

[homemade]

I’d talk to walbro tech support. They might have a carb option for operating at higher altitude.

What part of the saw is “wearing out”?
What saw you running?
Bar length?

The only relatable experience I have is sawing ice, is for sturgeon spearing. Where you cut a 4’x4’ hole in 2’ thick ice to spear a fish. And elevations are 800-1000 feet above sea level. And we run veggie oil for bar lube. We do use a specifically designed ice chain though. Don’t know if it can be run dry?

 

[holeycow]

drill a hole, use a super sawzall to cut a circle, pop the cylinder out.

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

I'm thinking battery powered arborist saws. The only concern is temperature on the battery, but an added bonus is exhaust fume contamination will be eliminated.

 

[holeycow]

I'm thinking rechargeable battery tech.

mediocre minds think alike. Beat me to it..

 

[holeycow]

and I'm thinking not a chainsaw.

I've cut lots of ice with a chainsaw. Its kind of messy. It seems to be hard on saws. Noisy and fumey with gas power.

 

[U&A]

So basically your problem is power only? Chain is lasting long enough and will probably go through Bars a lot quicker but it is what it is without oil. Can tou use liquid soap in the oil tank?

Just a thought. It has slight lubricant properties especially because everything is going to be so cold it won’t burn up... and its not oil.

I’m pretty sure a husky autotune will solve your power problems.

You could modify the clutch cover two allow it to dump more snow and ice chunks out versus getting plugged up.


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[holeycow]

they don't get plugged up. They can freeze-up between cuts (chain to bar)

I don't think he is wanting any contamination whatsoever, ideally.

 

[holeycow]

drill two holes, insert diamond rope down-hole with two rods (rope attached to each one) proceed to two (or possibly one)-man saw down with appropriate length rope. The rope/cable length has to be adjustable...drill more holes. Repeat..

Ice used to be sawed with handsaws like logging crosscut saws I think?

 

[diezelsmoke]

Chain problems because a lot of dirt/etc.. in the ice. I would think the new electronic carbs would work the best for altitude adjustments.

 

[s sidewall]

Batteries to me isn't a good choice, cold temperatures and batteries don't mix, they don't have to power you need and die fast. Diamond cutting cable system they use to cut granite to me would also be the best chose.

Steve

 

[Van462]

At 28000 feet I assume you are on breathing air. You have try rigging up a replacement air filter cover and feed it as well. It would have to be mix air/nitrogen as feeding it O2 above 40% can get dicey.

 

[U&A]

Power cutters? Mod it to run on an autotune carb?

https://www.husqvarna.com/us/products/power-cutters/


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[holeycow]

Batteries to me isn't a good choice, cold temperatures and batteries don't mix, they don't have to power you need and die fast. Diamond cutting cable system they use to cut granite to me would also be the best chose.

Steve

modern lithium ion batteries actually do quite well in the cold, not necessarily in bitter cold, but down to about 20 below they work pretty well. You have to keep the spares warm. Body heat would do to maintain and even warm batteries.

 

[ericm979]

No naturally aspirated engine is going to run well at 28,000'. Carb adjustment or not. There's only 35% of the oxygen that's at sea level. That means only 35% of the power.
Battery power is not affected by altitude. If you have solar cells and a charger you can recharge them rather than having to pack gasoline.

 

[s sidewall]

Would be still hard to keep them warm in use unless it had a heated wrap around them to maintain the optimum temperature.

Steve

 

[RandyinTN]

Where are you cutting up glaciers at 28,000 feet? And how are you getting there?

 

[mesupra]

Seriously not one recommendation for heated handles. A husky xpg is practically built for ice core samples with its heated carb and handles....

I love a good problem like this. Really get you thinking.

What about a hot knife ( pronounced ka-nife) maybe a rather thin but study piece of stainless heated via conduction, or even a round stainless hot pipe or square that could be melted through the ice while leaving enough solid ice intact for the sample. Power could be from a battery bank or a small generator.

 

[holeycow]

Would be still hard to keep them warm in use unless it had a heated wrap around them to maintain the optimum temperature.

Steve

They are used in the winter up here for many different tasks. There are some tricks (like maybe a wrap, as you mentioned), but it is quite manageable.

You are from Georgia?

I am from Canada. It is about -11 here right now. Down to -20c tonite. This happens for nearly 7 months of the year around here. We had some -5c’s in August and I think even a -8 that month. That was unusual for August. It’s more normal in September. Our October was beautiful with temps up to +13c or so. Now it is winter, with 8” of snow on the ground. It will be like this until sometime early April..

I’ll ask you for advice about heat, how about that? I have no idea how to deal with heat.

This was all in good natured fun, please forgive me any offence.