Centerbore cut VIDEO is here!

[BlueRidgeMark]

I think at 22 im doing pretty good at this tree cuttin stuff

I think at 22 you are way too sure of yourself. You have a lot to learn. Now is a good time to start.


Like I said, I'm not a professional tree guy, but I saw stuff on that video that I sure didn't like. I'll leave the specific comments to the pros, but you are way too cocky.

 

[1CallLandscape]

I think at 22 you are way too sure of yourself. You have a lot to learn. Now is a good time to start..

If i wasnt sure of myself then i wouldnt be cutting trees for a living. and as for being a little cocky...its a must when your the young guy in a business and your competing for the ranks. yes i am aware that i have alot to learn still and i am willing to, but how can i learn from "people" that are treating me like some dumb kid...

OK im over it, lets all go back to being civil like smokechase said....... and lay off what i did and didnt do right and focus on the cut at hand....there are many variations and formulas to get this cut done, but as long as the given tree is felled in such a manner that puts it in the desired location and nothing is damaged or hurt then the cut was an obvious sucess.

 

[techdave]

Thaks for the video mike, PLEASE take 'chasers words to heart?

Hi Mike, thanks for taking the time to post.

it is good that you are willing to put yorself out there and post!

please dont take corrections to your technique in the video as a repudiation of your character, intelligence, or work ethic.

Crews like Chaser's are arguably among the best in the world at what he does. Put trees on the ground in difficult situations.

Moreover, from the tone of his posts I am guessing like me , he is a middle aged man.

That means he has seen or heard of lots of deaths due to workplace mistakes or bad practices. including some pretty skilled and talented men who did things unsafely, "just one time" cuz they were in a hurry...or maybe most of the time"cuz this way has always worked ok for me".

What those of us who teach saw use and/or occupational safety know is that sooner or later, unsafe practices will catch up with a guy. Not if, but when, and how badly injured?


In the govenment agency where i volunteeer we have spent the last week talking down (smaller) and/or BUCKING to 6 foot diameter(can be very hazardous in a forest enviroment)fire, beetle, and drought killed trees. Quercuses, Pinuses, Calocedruses. My goal is to use perfect technique each time. But if I posted vids of my work I ould be compelled to put all apllicable failings of what I did up, and WELCOME corrections I might have missed.

it would not necessarily mean I did not know how to do better than what the vids show, just that I need to make sure no one copies any imPERFECTions in my technique.

We who are professionals are compelled by common decency and ethics to do all we can to promote only safe work habits.

For me, watching you moving around with your head so close to the butt of a tree with the cuts in (and thngs windy) was painful. Same for crossingn and re crossing behind the butt.

If we are to restrict the postings only to suggestions/additions and not corrections, i would suggest putting in the back cut first if it not a leaner or windy and is so small-or bore the face so teh wedge can progress thru the back cut once it sestablished, then you can wedge from behined, (when you dont need side lean correction. Wedging from both sides is asking to cross the butt, not a good idea to make a habit of that. If he wind is blowing dont fall, bu tif it comes up and you have cuts in, a safety bull rope tied off to anotehr tree (not vehicle) can serve as a preventer of the tree going over backwards or setting back.


just some thoughts, the nature of this site, is that if someone sees something unsafe, tehy will call you on it. dont take it personal, its a good thing!

Dave,

Jamul Ca
Faller to about class b on private lands, saw safety teacher and L&G tech in real life, State park trail volunteer and bucker and volunteer crew supervisor.

 

[techdave]

Thaks for the video mike, PLEASE take 'chasers words to heart?

Hi Mike, thanks for taking the time to post.

it is good that you are willing to put yorself out there and post!

please dont take corrections to your technique in the video as a repudiation of your character, intelligence, or work ethic.

Crews like Chaser's are arguably among the best in the world at what he does. Put trees on the ground in difficult situations.

Moreover, from the tone of his posts I am guessing like me , he is a middle aged man.

That means he has seen or heard of lots of deaths due to workplace mistakes or bad practices. including some pretty skilled and talented men who did things unsafely, "just one time" cuz they were in a hurry...or maybe most of the time"cuz this way has always worked ok for me".

What those of us who teach saw use and/or occupational safety know is that sooner or later, unsafe practices will catch up with a guy. Not if, but when, and how badly injured?


In the govenment agency where i volunteeer we have spent the last week talking down (smaller) and/or BUCKING to 6 foot diameter(can be very hazardous in a forest enviroment)fire, beetle, and drought killed trees. Quercuses, Pinuses, Calocedruses. My goal is to use perfect technique each time. But if I posted vids of my work I ould be compelled to put all apllicable failings of what I did up, and WELCOME corrections I might have missed.

it would not necessarily mean I did not know how to do better than what the vids show, just that I need to make sure no one copies any imPERFECTions in my technique.

We who are professionals are compelled by common decency and ethics to do all we can to promote only safe work habits.

For me, watching you moving around with your head so close to the butt of a tree with the cuts in (and thngs windy) was painful. Same for crossingn and re crossing behind the butt.

If we are to restrict the postings only to suggestions/additions and not corrections, i would suggest putting in the back cut first if it not a leaner or windy and is so small-or bore the face so teh wedge can progress thru the back cut once it sestablished, then you can wedge from behined, (when you dont need side lean correction. Wedging from both sides is asking to cross the butt, not a good idea to make a habit of that. If he wind is blowing dont fall, bu tif it comes up and you have cuts in, a safety bull rope tied off to anotehr tree (not vehicle) can serve as a preventer of the tree going over backwards or setting back.


just some thoughts, the nature of this site, is that if someone sees something unsafe, tehy will call you on it. dont take it personal, its a good thing!

Dave,

Jamul Ca
Faller to about class b on private lands, saw safety teacher and L&G tech in real life, State park trail volunteer and bucker and volunteer crew supervisor.

 

[techdave]

Thaks for the video mike, PLEASE take 'chasers words to heart?

Hi Mike, thanks for taking the time to post.

it is good that you are willing to put yorself out there and post!

please dont take corrections to your technique in the video as a repudiation of your character, intelligence, or work ethic.

Crews like Chaser's are arguably among the best in the world at what he does. Put trees on the ground in difficult situations.

Moreover, from the tone of his posts I am guessing like me , he is a middle aged man.

That means he has seen or heard of lots of deaths due to workplace mistakes or bad practices. including some pretty skilled and talented men who did things unsafely, "just one time" cuz they were in a hurry...or maybe most of the time"cuz this way has always worked ok for me".

What those of us who teach saw use and/or occupational safety know is that sooner or later, unsafe practices will catch up with a guy. Not if, but when, and how badly injured?


In the govenment agency where i volunteeer we have spent the last week talking down (smaller) and/or BUCKING to 6 foot diameter(can be very hazardous in a forest enviroment)fire, beetle, and drought killed trees. Quercuses, Pinuses, Calocedruses. My goal is to use perfect technique each time. But if I posted vids of my work I ould be compelled to put all apllicable failings of what I did up, and WELCOME corrections I might have missed.

it would not necessarily mean I did not know how to do better than what the vids show, just that I need to make sure no one copies any imPERFECTions in my technique.

We who are professionals are compelled by common decency and ethics to do all we can to promote only safe work habits.

For me, watching you moving around with your head so close to the butt of a tree with the cuts in (and thngs windy) was painful. Same for crossingn and re crossing behind the butt.

If we are to restrict the postings only to suggestions/additions and not corrections, i would suggest putting in the back cut first if it not a leaner or windy and is so small-or bore the face so teh wedge can progress thru the back cut once it sestablished, then you can wedge from behined, (when you dont need side lean correction. Wedging from both sides is asking to cross the butt, not a good idea to make a habit of that. If he wind is blowing dont fall, bu tif it comes up and you have cuts in, a safety bull rope tied off to anotehr tree (not vehicle) can serve as a preventer of the tree going over backwards or setting back.


just some thoughts, the nature of this site, is that if someone sees something unsafe, tehy will call you on it. dont take it personal, its a good thing!

Dave,

Jamul Ca
Faller to about class b on private lands, saw safety teacher and L&G tech in real life, State park trail volunteer and bucker and volunteer crew supervisor.

 

[sawsong]

i wonder if it would be prudent to compare this to the guidelines of UK CS30 and CS31 qualifications, the more relevant in this case being the latter which is related to felling and processing trees of equal or smaller diameter than guide bar length.

these are not criticisms, more observations that the UK taught felling techniques seem have disparity with the USA ones. I shall elaborate

UK spec specifies that 'sinks' or notches etc to you, need only be 20-25% of the tree's diameter in depth in order to provide adequate releif for 9/10 falls.

i have read in american books 1/3 and seen people take much more on videos

back cuts, whether bored or otherwise, should be noticably above the bottom of the sink in level, but NOT more than 25mm

hinges must be at least 10% by diameter, more on very small trees

as for what to use where.
straight tree/tree with no lean - standard technique. 45 degree sink, flat back cut not more than 25mm above

tree with lean in any direction other than that you wish to fell it in - split level

sink as normal. staying on right of tree, cut 2/3 across up to the hinge, leaving a third holding the tree still.
insert wedge or lever into the cut
move around to the other side of the tree and with the saw nose pointed down approx 30-45 degrees, remove the remaining third, undercutting the first cut at which point if done correctly, the tree will sit back on the wedge, lever, whatever. using lever or wedge techniques will now drive the tree over in the desired direction

tree leaning heavily in direction of fell - dogs tooth

now this seems to be the equivalent cut you just did. but again, variance, and that tree certainly wasnt a heavy leaner.
sink as normal
plunging/boring back cut in middle above bottom of sink but not more than 25mm again, move to leave the hinge, again, at least 10% and leave 10-20% at the back as a 'trigger'

now, this is the major disparity, our technique stipulates removing the trigger wood at 45 degrees, not flat. the reasoning is, it makes for an easier extraction and retreat, and if your saw remains in the cut when you retreat, the tree can't spit it out at you, it also guards further against the wood itself splitting.

as others have said (and i shant go over ppe again) escape routes are paramount, from that video i would have said you had adequate escape routes should you have wanted to take them, but it's hard to say so i cant comment too much,

all i know is an instant fail on my course was stepping behind the tree or into any of the danger zones, and cutting with the saw perfectly flat is the most valued skill. that's the only advice i can give, just always be mindful of what you are doing.

as for only being 22, im only 20, so be careful, take adequate precations, trees can bite hard, and 22 is a short time alive.

be safe
Jimmy

 

[Highclimber OR]

Nice technique. and hey Ekka, these guys don't talk funny, they're just from the NE U.S. Almost everyone from around there has that accent

 

[booboo]

Constructive criticism? OK.

Give short wedges a try on small diameter wood. Using the long wedges on small wood leaves them hanging way out, like in both videos. When they're like that, it's easy to snap them off when you're really loading them up and having a wedge snap when you've got the tree teetering and don't have much room to put another one in really sucks.

opcorn:

 

[Freakingstang]

Thanks for taking the time to post the video.

I am by no means a pro, but when I worked for a tree service we did bore cuts 99% of the time. When I fell trees, it is almost all I do.

Why did you start your notch at the right side of the tree, then come to the left side of the tree to make your bore cut. IMO, there was too much time after the first cut was made until the tree was on the ground.

I prefer to make the bore cut with the bottom side of the bar as the leading edge on the backcut. There is less chance of taking too much from the hinge this way vs with the bottem edge towards the hinge.

Not nit picking, but where was your third wedge after making the stap cut?

And lastly, why did you leave the stump so high? lol

Again, not nit picking, just asking. Thanks for taking the time to post the video. You'd be surprised how many people have never seen this cut

 

[Boa07]

1CallLandscape to repeat what others have said thanks for posting your video.

smokechase II, thanyou for putting up that link to the Swedish vid along with the instructions how to get to it, that is one of the best forestry vids I've ever seen.

 

[clearance]

That is the recommended felling cut for forward leaning trees so they dont barber chair.

Uhh, it is one of the cuts, certainly not THE cut, but if the tree is leaning forward why do you need a rope in it? Further more, if the tree has the potential to chair why would you beat the wedges in so hard? There are other cuts. I have never used this method, ever, never seen it done in real life, the closest thing I have done and seen is boring into and through the holding wood from from the undercut, only cutting out the center. And that is usually cause the tree is so big that its the only way without cutting windows. I find that a conventional or Humbolt undercut with the backcut sawn a little higher works all the time, perhaps more holding wood on one side, whatever. As far as heavy leaners, I usually make the undercut as far into the tree as I can without getting pinched, I make a triangle backcut, the side away from me first, then I put in the other side of the triangle from the side I finish on. As soon as the triangle is complete, without stopping I keep cutting till she goes. Have to have a powerfull saw, sharp and full of gas, have to have escape routes. If you are working for a tree service and worried, not logging, then get a decent chain with a grab hook from the truck (every truck should have one) and wrap the butt above the cuts. 1Call, no one is beating up on you here, you obviously have confidence, looks like you can run a saw, lots of ways to skin a cat, good luck to you.

 

[DonnyO]

cool vid!

There have been alot of criticisms, take 'em for what they're worth, and move on.

This is honestly one of the best non-ekka vids on AS! Who was that on the soundtrack? When I started watching ekka vids I thought to myself; " man, that guy talks funny"

Nice work Mike

 

[soutz]

just been through thread. mate you are 22. 22! the reason people are saying ppe, helmets etc is we the elders have seen what happens when all your best plans can go wrong, and when things go wrong they go wrong quickly. be safe. improve this aspect of your work. this is not talking down to you . treework is dangerous as much as we all have to have an ego to back ourselves to do the things we do we cannot dispute the fact that when tree hits person person loses. wear the helmet. re read the thread. understand that we the contributers to this thread thank you for posting and we will give opinions for you to think on. there is no need for any agro here there is more than enough in the rest of the world. climb safe.

 

[joesawer]

Hey it is good to be confident. To cocky to learn is not good. Your video was full of mistakes.
When I was 23 and cocky, I learned what cranial fluid tastes like and learned to wear a hard hat. Last fall I got hit hard enough to bust my hard hat. I was knocked out and woke up twenty feet down the hill, but walked away with a head ache and a sore neck. Becouse of my hard hat I was back at work and making money the next day. I at 24 I was cocky and fell 45' out of a tree. Now at 36 I say please teach me a safer technique.
Last year I worked in San Diego county county on the dead and dying trees Techdave refered to. There where some fatalities and a lot of injuries. Mostly becouse of improper technique.
These guys are concerned for your safety and the safety of people who might use your techniques.
At the risk of beating a dead dog. I have never seen a reason to use a trip cut and wedges.

 

[CRN Tree]

Ppe

Good posts but the PPE is a must. No one is allowed on any of my jobs without it. My best friend has a titanium plate in his head and was out of work for a year when hit from a dead branch not even in the tree he was cutting.

 

[maxburton]

My comments, as concise as possible:

• The video is very well-done.
• You need PPE!
• Don't use open notches. Your difficulty cutting it in the video shows one good reason why.
• Don't cross behind the tree on your exit.
• Your hinge was far too thin.
• Never use a truck to tension a line. Rope pullers or come-alongs are more than enough.
• I'm not too sure what those wedges were supposed to do.

Don't take the criticism personally. I got my hiney reamed out when I posted my Poplar removal video. Nitpicking is what these guys (myself included) do best. Keep making videos, I enjoyed watching it!

 

[techdave]

Hi Joesawyer...were you working in the Cuyamacas?.....

and Julian area? for that tree service that did all the work along highway 79?


The one with the crane and the helicopter?

That was some hairy stuff in places!

now we are plauged with black fungus killing drought stressed oaks!

 

[joesawer]

I am a hired gun. Contracted to several different companies.
I worked between Julian and Cuyamaca but off the Highway in Harrison Park area for Smith Crane and and Taylor Tree Serv.
Worked on the Santa Isabell Res on Vulcon mountian for Bradco Envorionmental Services, it was a helicopter job. I was very suprised to find 70"+ dbh red fir in pockets of alpine timber there.
Mataguay Boy Scout Res, also for Bradco. Made a San Diego news story about Americas most dangerous jobs there. We cut a lot of oak from there. If I remember right one over 80" dbh and I Know of several over 70" dbh. I was suprised to find a redwood big enough to threaten a historic building and to heritage oaks there.

 

[techdave]

Thanks Joe, you should see whats on Palomar...

Palomar is a little wetter than the retof the peniinulsar ranges, my first big tree as a Stte Park volunteer was a 60'++ fir that took out a 55 inches ++ black oak a few years back when it went down in a windstorm.

These were not breast height either.

The fir was 5 feet plus at about 30 feet up from the base of the butt and the Oak was 4 ft plus at about 20 feet up from the top of he root wad. Neither measurement includes to flare at the union of the co-dominant leaders either. We were bucking below that swell. Just enough to clear a foot trail,

The oak ws so big and so heavy two striong dudes could not lever it out of place with prybars. had to use the grip hoist to get the piece out of the trail.

If I get a scanner up and running I will post pics.

Thanks, Dave.

ps--big dead tree removal at Green valley in CRSP. Big oak butts bigger that my 50 inch bar on my new 3120 xp.

A monster pine was taken down by a ballsy young dude of an independent contractor who got got poor support from his boss and groundie, and all of whom wore no ppe and wlked around under 12 inch limbs hung up 50 feet abovve tehm!!!!

Pics to follow ehn teh film is developed.

 

[woodfarmer]

neither tree looked big enough or with enough lean to warrant a bore cut, i'm with clearance never use a bore cut, i always wear my kevlar pants, hard hat with ear muffs when cutting in any and all weather. i also walk around the back of the tree wherever i need to make the cut, sure beats the hell out of walking around the front don't it.