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Felling direction

Discussion in 'Forestry and Logging Forum' started by jdc123, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. pdqdl

    pdqdl Old enough to know better.

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    Yep. Pretty close to the same thing, although I don't generally let them fall off the stump that much. Then again, I am never concerned about "saving wood". It looked very well executed, done by an experienced pro. I believe he was compensating for a crooked tree more than swinging around obstructions; there is not much difference in the final analysis.

    I would have spent a great deal more time studying the cut, 'cause I don't get that many. Hence, my desire to improve my technique.
     
  2. northmanlogging

    northmanlogging The gyppo's gyppo

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    Well that was me... so it was intended to skip around the maples and hopefully land parallel with the gully i was in... so...

    It worked kinda... missed most of the maple but it still broke on the far side
     
  3. madhatte

    madhatte It's The Water Staff Member

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    Not the best pic, but it's what I have on my phone right now, from a fire. What it is is a vertical notch cut down into the face cut, forward of the fat side of an offset hinge, in order to give the fibers somewhere to bend into before they break. The bending gives the tree time to come around before closing the face and falling. You can really get them to move this way, even relatively small ones. The big benefit here is that it saves a lot of wedging by using gravity to do the work. The disadvantage is that if it doesn't start moving on time, you gotta wedge anyway and now you have less hinge. This one was hanging out over a road and I pulled it around about 120 degrees. You can see the fibers on the butt where it pulled out of only one side, and the other side where I nipped everything off. Again, when it sits down on your bar as you nip the off side, you know the top is moving, and you hang on until the saw comes free and you skedaddle forthwith.


    siz.jpg
     
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  4. pdqdl

    pdqdl Old enough to know better.

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    Ahh! I have been doing that for years, but nobody ever taught me how, nor that it had a name.

    You lumber guys sound like you are cutting off the thin side of the hinge. I don't do that, and I never worry about trapping the saw, either. I just let it keep hanging on, and slowly advance into the thicker side until the tree is going down. Then I just step back and watch.

    It's probably one of those "save the wood" things, I guess? I care not about any pulled fibers or getting it off the stump.
     
  5. madhatte

    madhatte It's The Water Staff Member

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    You cut off the far side when that's the direction of the natural lean and you want the tree to come around. The tree will pull in the direction of the stronger hingewood. Sitting on the bar is no biggie, it's like using the bar as a bobber to detect the beginning of movement of the top. It won't stay trapped but a moment or two. as soon as it's free you know the tree's coming around and your work there is done.


    ... aaand it's not about saving wood -- see the fibers are pulling from the stump rather than the log? That's just a bonus. It's more about saving energy by not pounding wedges.
     
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  6. Westboastfaller

    Westboastfaller Addicted to ArboristSite

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    doesn't really matter what I quote.

    Your behavior was so
    G-D Dam bad I gave you a like.
    "Maybe PNW Fallers lack experience" lol.
    I don't know whether to laugh with you or at you. Pick a side, and be in it to win it.
    Don't say something and say " I just came over here to ask a question".
    I'm an independent, I'll call it how I see it.
    Yes you dished out the insult. It's worse not to own it right! I have no issue apologizing to anyone if I step over the line or make a joke that was close to home to somebody and they informed me. I have people hit my hot buttons and they apologize. Randy T Smac & Nologic ; I once said " If you guys ever have a dream you guys could ever fall Timber half as good as I could then you two better wake up and apologize.
    I guess they both have this reaccerring wet dream as I get a lot of apologies way of PM. Just apologize to me and let's move on.

    Thnk you



    Moreover:
    On a serious note...
    Why are you talking out of both sides of your mouth and confusing the matter.

    One is for manipulating a tree and the other is for insured accuracy. Polar opposites.
    The Physics is predictable not the degree it will travel. She is apples and oranges my friend. Do you want to talk about apples or oranges? Let's just not put 'em in the same box as it seems like a head game.
     
  7. Gypo Logger

    Gypo Logger Timber Baron

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    Nologic, lol. Good one.
     
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  8. pdqdl

    pdqdl Old enough to know better.

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    If you are going to quote me inaccurately, don't put it inside quote marks. Using quote marks means that it is word for word, which just ain't so.
     
  9. JTM

    JTM ArboristSite Operative

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    I did this today on a small 25' hickory and it worked like a charm.
     
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  10. madhatte

    madhatte It's The Water Staff Member

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    I've only cut one hickory, and man did it surprise me by how strong the fibers were. I cut that hinge down to nothing and tripled my wedges and it just kept holding on, and when it finally went it was like it was in slow motion. That's some tough wood!
     
  11. pdqdl

    pdqdl Old enough to know better.

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    Hickory isn't nearly as tough as Osage orange. Ever cut one of those?
     
  12. madhatte

    madhatte It's The Water Staff Member

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    No. The hickory I cut was planted as an ornamental for some reason and was damaged by an ice storm, so it was marked for removal. We don't ordinarily have them here, nor osage orange. On that project I also cut a bunch of red oak, sweetgum, and sycamore, which we also don't have here.
     
  13. pdqdl

    pdqdl Old enough to know better.

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    Those are all common trees for me, I seldom get any conifers, and they are usually a small austrian pine killed by disease. I don't see too many hickories; they are more a forest-tree than an "urban-forest" variety. Still, I get an occasional shagbark. I don't ever recall noticing that they were any tougher than locust, which I consider a rather tough wood as well.

    Osage orange is almost a nightmare to work in. I don't know of any tree harder to cut up or handle. The branches are all crooked and tangle across each other. Once you cut off a branch, you still need help pulling it off the tree. After that, they are practically impossible to feed into a chipper, and a lot of them have thorns, as well. They are highly sought after by just a few folks, since they make fence posts that last 40-50 years. Yellow, stringy wood that burns incredibly hot in a wood stove, they are quite popular with the firewood guys.

    It is quite uncommon for Osage orange to be damaged by ice-storms. They are just too strong. I'm pretty sure I have never seen a hedge tree split during a cut (no concerns about barber-chair), and only rarely do we ever get a broken tree or branch of any sort, even in the worst wind storms.

    60-80 years ago, they were planted all across the Midwest as wind breaks during the dust bowl days. I still come across those old fence rows in very nice housing communities where the developer chose to not rip out the old trees. You can always count on ruining several chains cutting out the trunk where the barbed wire was strung between the trees. So old now, the wire is gone, but it remains inside all the trunks.
     
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  14. northmanlogging

    northmanlogging The gyppo's gyppo

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    I've heard and probably read somewhere that Osage Orange makes a real good bow wood, as good or better then yew.
     
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  15. madhatte

    madhatte It's The Water Staff Member

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    Sounds like an "interesting" species. I'm only a little bit disappointed to have not made its acquaintance.
     
  16. pdqdl

    pdqdl Old enough to know better.

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    I couldn't say. I have never been around the European yew. I did find this article online, that specifically compares the two, along with a couple of other woods that are even better. Hickory, for whatever reason, wasn't on the list. Apparently, it has more to do with a modulus of elasticity than anything else. According to this source, they are almost identical in bow performance characteristics.

    "In terms of looking at the raw mechanical data of woods, the best bow woods tend to be those that have a low MOE and a high MOR. (Stated another way, the best bow woods tend to be those that will bend easily, and not break.)"

    Modulus Of Elasticity=MOE
    Modulus Of Rupture=MOR

    "Given the great differences in density and overall strength between Yew and Osage Orange, it’s very interesting to note that the Bow Index of the two species comes out to nearly the same."


    yew comparison.png

    Given these numbers, a bow made with Osage Orange would be stronger or thinner, when compared to yew. I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't bend as much before snapping, so you would need it to be longer in order to shoot the same length arrows. If they performed equally well as an archery tool, I would rather have a bow made with Osage orange; 'cause in a battle situation, as hard as that wood is, it would surely make a better club when you ran out of arrows!
     
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  17. pdqdl

    pdqdl Old enough to know better.

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    While I was on that wood database website, I looked up the numbers on hickory. There were about 7 species listed, and several of them were actually tougher than Osage orange in several categories. So I stand corrected. Perhaps this is why my favorite US President got his nickname.

    "On the last day of the presidency, Jackson admitted that he had but two regrets, that he "had been unable to shoot Henry Clay or to hang John C. Calhoun."​
     
  18. madhatte

    madhatte It's The Water Staff Member

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    I only know that those fibers were far longer and stronger than anything else I've ever cut, and that's saying something because Douglas-fir fibers are both very long and very strong.
     
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  19. pdqdl

    pdqdl Old enough to know better.

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    Common Name(s): Douglas-Fir
    Scientific Name: Pseudotsuga menziesii
    Tree Size: 200-250 ft (60-75 m) tall, 5-6 ft (1.5-2 m) trunk diameter
    Average Dried Weight: 32 lbs/ft3 (510 kg/m3)
    Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .45, .51
    Janka Hardness: 620 lbf (2,760 N)
    Modulus of Rupture: 12,500 lbf/in2 (86.2 MPa)
    Elastic Modulus: 1,765,000 lbf/in2 (12.17 GPa)
    Crushing Strength: 6,950 lbf/in2 (47.9 MPa)

    I have never put a saw to a Douglas fir, but the numbers say it is less flexible than either of the trees posted above. Not nearly as strong, it is also lighter and easier to crush. That lack of flexibility is probably why you guys are so worried about getting the tree to fall just right off the stump.
     
  20. JTM

    JTM ArboristSite Operative

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    I've never tried it but folks that make self-bows seem to prefer it. Can look pretty interesting as a limb lamination too.
     

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