First Slabs with Granberg Alaskan

[Hydestone]

Hi All

I cut my first slabs from a large eastern white Pine today with my Granberg Alaskan. I’m using a Stihl MS290 with 18” bar. I’m cutting parts for a workbench.

I put a freshly sharpened regular chain on my saw, but it too forever to cut the slabs. Maybe 15 minutes for a 9’ x 15” wide board. Sawdust was really fine and moist, no long strands. The tree fell 4-5 months ago and is 38”diameter. I was thinking I could get by wit a regular chain, but thinking now I need to pick up a ripping chain.

Should I get one or stick with the regular chain. Don’t need a ton of wood.

In the past I’ve used a regular chain on same saw to freehand Mill some maple, and it was pulling out nice long strips.

Not sure what is happening.


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[Husky Man]

A Skip Tooth chain can help pick up your chain speed, and will clear the chips better than a Full Comp chain will.

I'm pretty new to milling too, there are quite a few here who use Skip tooth, with Good results


Doug

 

[BobL]

I put a freshly sharpened regular chain on my saw, but it too forever to cut the slabs. Maybe 15 minutes for a 9’ x 15” wide board. Sawdust was really fine and moist, no long strands. .

You will not get strands (noodles) if you are milling into end grain but too much fine dust tells me your rakers are too high and/or top/side plate angle is too high. Post a close up, side-on picture of some cutters and I'll do a chain diagnosis for you. .
Chainsaw milling is ALWAYS slow but you're never going to get a fast cut with such a small saw even if the chain is optimised.

The tree fell 4-5 months ago and is 38”diameter. I was thinking I could get by wit a regular chain, but thinking now I need to pick up a ripping chain. Should I get one or stick with the regular chain. Don’t need a ton of wood..

Ripping chan makes no different to speed - it makes a little difference to finish but that's about it.

In the past I’ve used a regular chain on same saw to freehand Mill some maple, and it was pulling out nice long strips.[/QUOTE]
You were probably cutting parallel to the grain - strips (noodles) are normal when you do this.

Better than milling chain would be some Lopro, but you really need to change teh drive sprocket and bar for optimum performance.

 

[BobL]

A Skip Tooth chain can help pick up your chain speed, and will clear the chips better than a Full Comp chain will.

If the chain is set up right, skip chain won't make much difference on such a narrow cut.
Full comp chain is actually very efficient at sawdust clearance and while it takes longer to sharpen it should then not dull as quickly.
I use full comp on 60" wide cuts and the only difference I've found is the skip chain goes dull a bit quicker.

 

[Hydestone]

Thanks for the info! Here is a picture of the chain, let me know if you need another angle.

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[BobL]

The first thing that stands out is it looks like every second cutter edge looks like its had its cutter edge knocked off or deliberately filed at a opposite angle???
Can you take a closer up photo of 1 or 2 of these cutters so I can see what is going on


The raker heights are also waaaaaay to inconsistent.

Here I have rotated a section of the b&C so that the bar is horizontal. The short red lines represent what I call the raker angle - its the angle relative to the bar top.
A has basically ZERO angle where as B has an angle of about 4.5º which is what stock chain is.
Cutter A will not even be making much dust let alone chips and explain why you are cutting slowly
Read the Milling 101 sticky to find out about all the cutter angles etc.

For milling even with a small saw (because it should have a shorter bar and chain) I recommend starting at 6.5º provided your top plate filing angle ( TPFA) is correct and consistent across cutters0
Cutter B has close to a reasonable TPFA but the file is too low down under the cutter edge - lifting the file up with decrease the TPFA and improve the cutting speed.
.
In your softwoods with a bigger saw I recommend starting at 7.5º and biggest saws in narrow woods can use as high as 9º.
Don't take my angles as gospel - you have to find the raker angles that suit you saw/chain/wood.
The chain will be grabby as all hell and there will be more vibe and B&C wear but it should cut faster, less duct and more chip.

Your raker profiles are also too different - in the top photo top row of chain RHS there is one that looks like a sharks fin, whereas Cutter A in the second photo has a raker than is almost square.
The shape of the raker determines how far it penetrates into the wood - YES it does penetrate, actually it rocks its way in just a bit but more than enough to change the effect of the TPFA.

The little red arrow on cutter B points to a bit of metal that should be removed - this helps keep sawdust flowing away from teh cutter tip.

All in all it looks like you have a bit of work to do to get that chain into shape.

 

[LoneMadrone]

The legendary BobL comes through yet again with his vast wealth of knowledge. When BobL's talking, I for one am listening. This man puts in actual work to help all of us on this site. It's incredible to compare the value of his posts to the non-sense that you see on other threads here. On behalf of all of us CSM'ers Thank You BobL! Keep milling boys!

 

[LoneMadrone]

Plus, that chain is jacked up, my dude.

 

[Hydestone]

Guys - I really appreciate the chain diagnosis. I brought a couple chains in to have them sharpened thinking they’d do a much better job than I would...bummer that they did a hack job.

Here are some more photos from a different spot on the chain.

Is this chain salvageable or should I try again?

I’ve got a standard round chain file, without a guide that I’ve used in the past, I think with some success. Sounds like I need to learn more about parts of chains and how to properly sharpen them.

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[Hydestone]

This is the chain I started cutting with, before I switched to the jacked up chain I previously posted.

Below is another chain they sharpened for me, that I haven’t put on the saw yet.

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[Marshy]

Wow, I'd be pissed if I got a chain back like that.

First, it looks like they are using the wrong size wheel for your standard 3/8" pitch chain. It appears to be ground with an 1/8" wheel whereas they should be using a 3/16" wheel.

Second, they are going way too deep! They are almost into the strap.

Third, the hook angle is way too aggressive and the chain will dull fast.

 

[Marshy]

Here is a perfect example.
Green lines are your hook angle. It should not be that shallow.
They should not be grinding below the red line. The removed material between the red and yellow line is bad practice. It could cause the chain to break if you were using a higher hp saw.

What ever money you are pay to have them ground is too much, even if it's free.

 

[BobL]

OK, with regards my my previous comment about the cutters looking like they have had the cutter tips knocked off them, it looks like I might be looking at sawdust.
Maybe clean the chain and post a similar photo as in post number 5.

Your hook (TPFA) angle as shown by the green lines in Marshy's post works out to 57º.
This is actually OK , provided it is set relative to the raker angle, width of cut and saw power this is why one set of angles as prescribed by manufacturers simple does not suit all situations.

Will Malloff (see top photo below) uses even shallower angle (48º) still but he uses an 090.
The same line as Will mallow's is shown on one of my cutters below Wills photo but my TPFA is about 5º higher than Will's, ~53º, because I'm running mostly in very hard woods.
Note the raker tops are rounded - they have to be able to penetrate wood so the cutter tip can bite into the wood otherwise all you end up doing is making dust
e

You main problem appears to be your rakers - too uneven in profile and too high,

 

[Hydestone]

Guys

I’m ordering some sharpening tools this morning off Amazon. Any suggestions?

Stihl Kit is 24.70
Mizoova Kit is 14.99
Katzco Kit is 15.99

Each contains basically the same stuff. Not sure there is any reason to drop the extra cash for the Stihl Kit.


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[BobL]

The raker depth jigs in both the Mizoova and Katzco kits are not worth using.
Teh file guid are what I use so I would suggest just buying one separately as teh cost about $5.
The Mizoova and Katzco raker depths gauges might be OK for brand new chain (usually they are too wussy) but after that they produce a shallower and shallower raker angle as the cutter gets shorter and shorter and all you will end up doing is making dust.
The whole idea about progressive raker depth setting is the raker depth should be a fixed proportion (eg~1/10th) of the gullet width.
This means when the cutter is new and the gullet is 0.25", teh raker depth should be 0.025", when the gullet is 0.30" the raker should be 0.030", when the gullet is 0.45 the raker should be 0.045"
Yes it looks like the chain will be super grabby and it sure will grab but you will be blown away by how a really old chain can cut as well as a brand new one.

There is nothing magical about the 1/10th proportion, on softwoods with a narrow cut and big saw that proportion might be 1/7th

 

[Hydestone]

Thanks again Bob. I’ll take your advice!

I saw some 2 in 1 easy files online. Probably good for a quick sharpen, but not god for customizing sharpening?


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[Marine5068]

The legendary BobL comes through yet again with his vast wealth of knowledge. When BobL's talking, I for one am listening. This man puts in actual work to help all of us on this site. It's incredible to compare the value of his posts to the non-sense that you see on other threads here. On behalf of all of us CSM'ers Thank You BobL! Keep milling boys!

We need to thank Bob in some bigger better way.
Maybe we should Knight him as the CSM milling King and chain sharpening Guru.
Thanks for all your help and wisdom Bob.

 

[BobL]

FWIW, and for newbies especially, I am largely riding on the coat tails of previous AS members and others who are either no longer participating or have moved on. I'd like to be able to attribute some of my knowledge to my tree faller dad but unfortunately that's not really the case. Dad was a basic "suck it and see" CS operator and didn't seem to use much logic. For example he and his workmates threw chains away after about half the cutter had been used up because he never knew about progressive raker setting and religiously used a 0.025" raker depth until the chain started making too much dust. One thing I did learn from him was how to work hard . He started falling in the early 50's, still in the days of just axes and cross cut hand saws, in hardwoods approaching the size of US coastal redwoods. By the early 60's he was carrying 2 big (100+ cc) saws, a hessian bag containing 2 axes and steel wedges, and his mix and chain lube containers, through above head height thick undergrowth, to get between trees he was falling. During school vacations I used to tag along and carry the mix and chain lube containers. Now I sit on my backside while watching my CSM slide down a log on its own - there's no comparison . . . . . .

 

[Marine5068]

FWIW, and for newbies especially, I am largely riding on the coat tails of previous AS members and others who are either no longer participating or have moved on. I'd like to be able to attribute some of my knowledge to my tree faller dad but unfortunately that's not really the case. Dad was a basic "suck it and see" CS operator and didn't seem to use much logic. For example he and his workmates threw chains away after about half the cutter had been used up because he never knew about progressive raker setting and religiously used a 0.025" raker depth until the chain started making too much dust. One thing I did learn from him was how to work hard . He started falling in the early 50's, still in the days of just axes and cross cut hand saws, in hardwoods approaching the size of US coastal redwoods. By the early 60's he was carrying 2 big (100+ cc) saws, a hessian bag containing 2 axes and steel wedges, and his mix and chain lube containers, through above head height thick undergrowth, to get between trees he was falling. During school vacations I used to tag along and carry the mix and chain lube containers. Now I sit on my backside while watching my CSM slide down a log on its own - there's no comparison . . . . . .

Thanks for a glimpse into how you became BobL
My Dad was also hard working, but grew up kind of privileged with servants and a cook in his dad's household in Grenada West Indies.
He had no actual or practical knowledge of anything mechanical but a great work ethic that I absorbed.
I learned saws and cutting because I live in the world's largest boreal forest, I was always out there playing around with other friend's saws and that made me like it more each day.
I still live in the same woods and I can still out work most guys half my age, pain or no pain.
I guess I just love wood and the environment and be self sufficient in a way making firewood and building materials from trees.