Humboldt vs. Conventional

[tramp bushler]

stumpy jump shot !!!

. It,s good to have your back cut come in under your kerf dutchman .. . Less chance of some stump pull grabbing your chain and taking your saw for a free death ride down a mountain ...
.
. But I try to keep a couple inches up on the holding wood side ........... I,ve had a few trees sit on me , my bar when I matched up my cuts with a fast cutting saw ..

 

[joesawer]

. It,s good to have your back cut come in under your kerf dutchman .. . Less chance of some stump pull grabbing your chain and taking your saw for a free death ride down a mountain ...
.
. But I try to keep a couple inches up on the holding wood side ........... I,ve had a few trees sit on me , my bar when I matched up my cuts with a fast cutting saw ..

The very first brand new saw I ever bought took that free death ride when it only had a few hours on it.
That made me a very sad and broke young man. But it got me started on a good collection of saw parts.

 

[Rounder]

Humboldt's are cooler... :rockn:

Gary

lol, yeah what he said. It's also a little easier for the hookers to get out of a jam when the skyline don't have much lift if they got a little slope on the stump.

 

[FSburt]

Hi Joe not to but in on the conversation just wanted to pass on that there is some work being done to try and change the requirements for falling bosses on incidents to be saw certified. As for the stump shot stuff on Govt fire's it is something that is required because of the OSHA regs that are used.

 

[joesawer]

Hi Joe not to but in on the conversation just wanted to pass on that there is some work being done to try and change the requirements for falling bosses on incidents to be saw certified. As for the stump shot stuff on Govt fire's it is something that is required because of the OSHA regs that are used.

Your not butting in. Any useful and meaningful contributions are welcome as far as I am concerned.
Heck I butted in on somebody's thread!
OSHA regs are one of the things that grip me the most as being a case of regs written and enforced by people who are not often qualified to do what they are attempting to regulate.
Fortunately every OSHA reg that I can remember reading has an escape clause that says in effect it can be altered or modified if it can be demonstrated that it is safer to do so.
Well stump shot makes the initial forward movement harder to start. So if you are driving wedges in a dead tree the easier it moves the safer it is. If there is not a need for stump shot it is often safer to have the tree start moving easier.
If you are not even aware of the dynamics of stump shot please do not try to enforce it as a catch all on me!

 

[bullbuck]

I agree with you completely. I have not cut the big snags that are like you are talking about just a lot of bug eaten mush bags that you hope have a bone in the middle.
Maybe not completely, a ramp on the stump or a ramp on the butt. Which one is going to jump the stump easier?
I don't care to trust my life with either as often it bounces over the stump or slides by the side of it.
What bothers me is the people who say that you have to put stump shot on every tree. The only trees I have ever had come back behind the stump got pushed there by bent wood acting like a spring or gravity. I reserve the right to set the hinge up how and I want it for that particular tree. I don't think some body who is sitting in a office some distance and time away can better judge what is needed.
I was falling trees as a contractor for the FS on the Day fire. The only ones that they had me fall where the ones they did not want to mess with. They where mostly big dead rotten pines that had a problem that made them decide not to mess with it.
I caught some serious flack for not using enough or any stump shot. Well excuse me, but if it is to difficult for you to fall, you are not qualified to tell me how to do it.

:agree2:

 

[Woodaddict]

For those of you that say you don't use the humboldt or it's unneeded or not safe need to check out Buckin Billy Ray Smith on YouTube, he controls those trees like a puppeteer!

 

[Woodaddict]

Double tap.

 

[bitzer]

Billy Ray huh ? Oh boy.

 

[madhatte]

I like Buckin'. He's a good cutter and an entertaining YouTuber. He's humble and doesn't give terrible advice. I would like to see him get more religious about PPE, because lots of folks do take his word as gospel, but other than that I don't have any big complaints with him. Also I really like that '69 Mercury crew cab truck he's got. That is a rare and cool rig.

 

[Woodaddict]

I tried to look that truck up, I can't find anything about it.

 

[slowp]

I would find it hard to learn from youtube if I did not know the faller doing the talking. I've been around fallers in real life and there are some you can trust and others that you want to be a good distance away from. The latter might talk the talk, but they do not have the control /skills of the other folks.

A faller that was my neighbor had a very good reputation and the skills but still the tractor beam of the large windows of my house almost brought the tree through them. He had the experience to realize what was happening and powered the saw through enough (while the alder was trying to barberchair) so the window and house was merely brushed a little bit. Oh, and he was using a conventional face on the alders as they were not going to be anything other than firewood. Had he hit the window, it would have been interesting because my insurance agent was of the same falling skill level and would understand exactly. Maybe we should have offset the pulling of the house with a brand new pickup parked where the tree was supposed to go.

Wish he had a youtube channel but he shy and doesn't use a lot of jargon. He will tell you if you ask how, "I'm gonna put er down over there." Then he does, usually.

 

[madhatte]

I tried to look that truck up, I can't find anything about it.

Behold

Maybe we should have offset the pulling of the house with a brand new pickup parked where the tree was supposed to go.

That would work for sure.

 

[john-ford-t]

I have to say, that I have only used the conventional undercut; and, it has served me well here in the northern end of the pacific northwest; even in standing dead Douglas Fir (up to 60 inches diameter) cut for firewood; on all types of ground and have never had any complaints. I guess it comes down to what you are taught and what your'e comfortable with; (and what the regulations require). I admit that I have had to add splint cuts (90 degrees to the horizontal cut of the notch) and a plunge cut in the center of the notch on some of the larger trees; however, if one takes care to construct a correctly formed undercut regardless of the type; and, makes sure to place the back cut the correct amount above the horizontal cut of the notch; and, leaves 1/10th of the diameter as a hinge; then, the tree always falls where you intended it to go.
( as long as you aim the positioning of the horizontal cut correctly) Also I was taught that the mark of a professional faller was that he/or she always had a large amount of
wedges with them and used them in the back cut. I have had three sets of double wedges (with sawdust in between the wedges ) in the back cut of a 65 inch diameter dead Fir I was felling for firewood and still had wedges left over. ( I know; I know; I can hear y'all hollering... wedges... huh... don't need them....) Oh; and that 65 inch diameter tree was on really difficult ground; and went down quite nicely I might add... though I have to admit it did end up landing about ten feet down slope of the front of the stump. I think what I am trying to say here is that you use the tools and experience you have; to assess the situation for each tree; and safely get the tree on the ground in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[Westboastfaller]

I have to say, that I have only used the conventional undercut; and, it has served me well here in the northern end of the pacific northwest; even in standing dead Douglas Fir (up to 60 inches diameter) cut for firewood; on all types of ground and have never had any complaints. I guess it comes down to what you are taught and what your'e comfortable with; (and what the regulations require). I admit that I have had to add splint cuts (90 degrees to the horizontal cut of the notch) and a plunge cut in the center of the notch on some of the larger trees; however, if one takes care to construct a correctly formed undercut regardless of the type; and, makes sure to place the back cut the correct amount above the horizontal cut of the notch; and, leaves 1/10th of the diameter as a hinge; then, the tree always falls where you intended it to go.
( as long as you aim the positioning of the horizontal cut correctly) Also I was taught that the mark of a professional faller was that he/or she always had a large amount of
wedges with them and used them in the back cut. I have had three sets of double wedges (with sawdust in between the wedges ) in the back cut of a 65 inch diameter dead Fir I was felling for firewood and still had wedges left over. ( I know; I know; I can hear y'all hollering... wedges... huh... don't need them....) Oh; and that 65 inch diameter tree was on really difficult ground; and went down quite nicely I might add... though I have to admit it did end up landing about ten feet down slope of the front of the stump. I think what I am trying to say here is that you use the tools and experience you have; to assess the situation for each tree; and safely get the tree on the ground in a reasonable amount of time.

Hello Salmon Arm. You show me a "Faller" that doesn't use wedges and I will show you a bullshitter. they are the ones that don't have the skills too. good thing you never "listened" anyway. Your last line says it all. Lots of real Bc interior wet belt cedar fallers around you that qualify to cut on the coast any day of the week.

 

[john-ford-t]

Hi Westboastfaller; Salmon Arm here. I always use wedges and that might be one reason why I am still alive. I have felled large cedar; too, and they can be tricky due to the fact that they are almost always rotten and/or hollow in the center; and, A few I fell seemed good when I was constructing the undercut, but were paper thin when I started the back cut. One in particular, barberchaired like a bomb going off when I was barely started the back cut and although I got out without injury, I lost my 288. But as my grandfather said " you can always replace a saw, but it's pretty hard to replace you" You are right about only bullshitters don't use wedges.
Some guys only know enough to be dangerous; but, those of us that made a living with saws were aware of the danger and took precautions to reduce it as much as possible. I know, cause I've felled a lot of "Danger" trees (like big cottonwoods, and dead schoolmarms ) and; also, I cut around 7-10 cords of standing dead Pine/ Douglass Fir for firewood each year.

 

[northmanlogging]

not many pro cutters that don't carry wedges.

If they don't then more then likely they are cutting hard woods and just falling everything with the lean hither tither... which does not make them very good fallers IMO.

 

[Wow]

not many pro cutters that don't carry wedges.

If they don't then more then likely they are cutting hard woods and just falling everything with the lean hither tither... which does not make them very good fallers IMO.

I make my own wooden wedges and never go to work without a tool belt full, plus some in each saw box. I get low, make more with my jig it's painless. Low would be less than a dozen extra, uncut, unnicked, not splintered on hand. Always have wood curing for making more wedges. The Persimmon ones are so hard they are as brittle as plastic. American Holley worked but was a tad soft. I've about tired of Persimmon and have some cured Elm to try. I cut trees near structures, high lines etc. I remove side leaners, back leaners, heavy forward leaners, and since I'm 70 and don't climb anymore I have to get em down in the only place that don't destroy things. Proper cuts, good saws, sharp chains, snatch blocks with a Bull Rope helps my luck. Not to long ago a non experienced helper allowed the rope to slack a bit after the tree was committed. I missed my Target by a few degrees but still landed in a permissable spot. No damage. Sometimes things happen. Recently again, slack rope, one limb brushed a storage shed. Minor damage to shed big damage to my reputation. I'm a fanatic about hitting my chosen lay but no one is perfect. Those times ropes got slack proper cuts and wedges saved my butt. Often, I've noticed mistakes compound. That's why I don't like to get sloppy. Back when I was young and climbing I topped way to much wood off a tree top. I was going to take the tree down so instead of hiring help the plan was let the wood fall beneath the tree. When all that weight folded over and kicked back on the way down it was like a Road Runner cartoon. What was left of that tree looked like a tuning fork. I was tethered or I'd been dead. That thing beat me like a jealous husband. If it had snapped off I'd be sitting on a cloud ******** for beer. You betcha, I'm cautious. How many times have we quit for the day. Removed our Chaps, face shield and Hard hat then decided to, before we leave, make that one more little bitty cut for a thousand different reasons. Yep, me too. Oh, wedges, sorry I got lost. Yes, love my wedges.

 

[Maître]

I can't believe some said that Humboldt is easier. Im a beginner and I was teached with conventional starting by angle and finishing by flat. I have tried several times cutting an Humboldt and I always endup not matching the cuts together whereas making conventional works perfectly the first time. I must do something wrong when i cut the Humboldt. Do you guys have any tricks for helping me ?

 

[Wow]

I can't believe some said that Humboldt is easier. Im a beginner and I was teached with conventional starting by angle and finishing by flat. I have tried several times cutting an Humboldt and I always endup not matching the cuts together whereas making conventional works perfectly the first time. I must do something wrong when i cut the Humboldt. Do you guys have any tricks for helping me ?

Hola amigo.. Agree with you.. I'm an old hand but i've trained a lot of guys and YES, a lot of guys find a Humboldt difficult. The prows make it look easy. I don't see any other goo reason to cut one other than getting more wood on the log. Mills like that nice flat end. BUT,, As you have stated. I start new guys out with a standard top cut. First, as you said, Cut the angle. You can easily see how to make the straight cut using the angle you already made. One thing to think of is Control of the Fall.. With the right cut the tree falls farther before the hing breaks.. Sometimes we cut a mixture of cuts for various reasons. For example on a standard Face cut you can make the long angle notch, THEN, step back look at the stump and decide IF you want to make an under cut.. In my mind every cut is different..A nice long under cut combined with the top cut gives a tree a lot of time before snapping the hinge. THE angle on the bottom helps the tree slide off the stump. Practice this and you might be able to make both above and below cuts leaving a "dutchman" when you need a tree to kick over to one side or the other a little bit.. THIS stuff takes TIME and practice. Start with SAFETY in mind first. Start on smaller trees with very little lean..Think up ideas to try but make sure you know your ideas are safe.. I'm 75 now and i've dropped a lot of trees. Even now, I never take anything for granted. Dead trees are less forgiving..Trees with dead limbs are like wild animals waiting to kill you. USE wedges.. I see guys on TV, walking up dropping trees without any wedges. That's how "THEY" do it.. Me, Most of the time, you can bet I've got wedges in my pouch. Enjoy..may your life be long and prosperous. There's just something special about the sound of a good chainsaw.