Humboldt vs. Conventional

[Westboastfaller]

in canada, they teach humboldt as a standard, but also the other basic methods as alternatives, each with its own purpose and need.
Note the standard/saginaw is not standard around here for a reason. It has its uses, but is less useful then humboldt or even bidsmouth or block face
Does it work yes, is it easy to learn, I guess, if only cause you can see your cuts better.
But the humboldt does 3 important things to a tree as its falling, fist being it naturally prevents back slip, second it leaves a taller stump when you're on steep ground its the stumps that keep logs from rolling down hills and killing people, and 3rd, allows the butt to slide to the dirt taking a great deal of the energy out of the falling tree and letting it "lay" rather then slam to the ground. All three of these things a standard face needs extra steps to achieve, such as a taller back cut, dutching the face to get it to "jump" off the stump, and still not being very good at not breaking timber, Though if you want the butt to stay off the ground, or intend to cause a back slip (very dangerous) then a standard works dandy.

Canada is a big place. Likely most provinces and territories still don't have a governing body in terms of chainsaw certs? I could be wrong on that?
They do have on-line do diligence courses that are
Occupational Health & Safety (OHS) approved. May just be for handling & maintenance for personal insurance and popular in industry with provinces with 'no certs'? Perhaps they cover basic F & B.

Certainly in merch timber production in BC then Humboldt is the main practice so anyone going through BC Fallers course would be practising that. Other than merch production you see more conventional. Probably 80+/20%.
Most all Gov (and contract) fire fallers cut conventional, same as Seismic fallers as well beetle work plus certified utility arborist/arborist and the list goes on...
Outside of 'production ' then it doesn't really matter what certified cut or cut sequence you use as long as you can maintain 3 out of 4 good stumps and they are going in the right place.
Somebody audits your work they just put a checkmark on a good stump & take a pic. Back in the day stumps were graded 0 that been a fail then 12 meets standards. 15 being a cherry stump. 13s & 14s were good quality. Hardwood and frozen wood, then pie cut was preferred but not enforced. You would just lose a point if it was otherwise between 13 & 15. Just a check mark now a days.

At least 6 yrs from when I started doing the Humboldt I did the angle cut first. Cutting a lot of small trees quick I got good at aiming off my body position but sometimes when the aim was right the bar was still dipped giving a crooked undercut. You get a nice flat back cut but end up with a high step on the far side unless you take the time to correct before B/C. When you did need to get behind the sight lines, well you can figure out a few tricks but its not as good.

Point is I can do the same speed with much better aim and stump quality with flat cut first.

I guess that was the thing for my that it was easy to line uo cuts

 

[Westboastfaller]

Approved? Encouraged? Or taught? I'm interested in what method they're teaching.
I've seen interpretations of what is actually taught that boggle the mind.

What would that be that boggles the mind?
Not sure if anyone is teaching angle cut first in Canada. Big place, different styles. People also experiment with things on their own and find it works until it dosen't. I wouldn't approve it in a production environment. Go ahead in some situations that may not matter.

 

[Maintenance supervisor]

What would that be that boggles the mind?
Not sure if anyone is teaching angle cut first in Canada. Big place, different styles. People also experiment with things on their own and find it works until it dosen't. I wouldn't approve it in a production environment. Go ahead in some situations that may not matter.

There's a difference between "taught " and self learn.

 

[catbuster]

Yes, my experience has been that aiming with your flat cut (snipe) is always more accurate. Sighting on the angle (scarf) is really hard, you’re looking at a corner of the top cover of the saw with a conventional face and good luck catching anything to see with a Humboldt.

Slashing brush and thinning small regen/reprod it really doesn’t matter, but tipping trees it makes a big difference.

 

[TBurt2168]

Found this stump this week out getting a load of firewood, might be the worst I’ve ever come across

 

[TBurt2168]

 

[melnik]

Not logger, just a lurker.

Looking at the old black-n-white pictures of loggers cutting huge trees out west with axes, I've wondered if the Humboldt was used because it was somehow easier to do the axe work. Of course I don't know, but it seems the Humboldt was settled-on out west before the chainsaw was around. Any chance it has something to do with what tools were available back then?

 

[northmanlogging]

Not logger, just a lurker.

Looking at the old black-n-white pictures of loggers cutting huge trees out west with axes, I've wondered if the Humboldt was used because it was somehow easier to do the axe work. Of course I don't know, but it seems the Humboldt was settled-on out west before the chainsaw was around. Any chance it has something to do with what tools were available back then?

short answer no.
its way harder to swing the axe up vs down.
But the True Humboldt is done with parallel cuts using a hand saw, what we would call a block face now.
they would then use axes and wedges to chunk out the blocks making the face cut.

 

[056kid]

I think Marcel cut for around 4 decades before retiring, alive.
Note the order in which he swings his 084, not on every tree, but these.

 

[northmanlogging]

nothing quite like limbing with a big block saw wearing a 42" bar, and realizing its probably not enough.
And having ran an 084 for a few full days of cutting... that Marcell dude is one tough SOB

 

[056kid]

I've not been able to find it for years, but there's a video with him carrying around an 090 with probably at least a 72" bar. Same video has him scaling a vine. He stops climbing & hangs off of the vine with one arm, elbow bent 90⁰ kind of like a metal army soldier. Pretty much defying physics! Profound strength!

 

[Maintenance supervisor]

Here's a current video of someone well respected in the job.
Its pretty obvious which cut he makes first.

 

[northmanlogging]

I think that using some of these bigger timber face cuts as an example is foolish, the guys ya all are showing are good, like really good. However, they are also cutting very large timber, starting with the bottom on a humboldt face in large timber has other benefits that out way cut accuracy, largely that the chunk that comes loose doesn't pinch your bar, or worse land on your foot as your messing with it. It also sets how low of a stump you can make out the gate, sometimes its hard to judge how high to start when they damned tree is over 4 or 5' in dia, so you can get your desired angle and depth without having to compromise after making the gun cut.

For most of the mere mortals out there, I will stand by my original statement that starting with the flat gun cut is easier, and more accurate.

 

[056kid]

Here's a current video of someone well respected in the job.
Its pretty obvious which cut he makes first.

The 2 for 1, start the first & second, finish the second, & then the first. If you hit your corner with the 2nd cut the undercut can fall right out when the first is finished up, nice & easy.

That seems to be the biggest & perhaps only advantage of starting with the 2nd cut & finishing with the first like Marcel was doing.

 

[056kid]

I think that using some of these bigger timber face cuts as an example is foolish, the guys ya all are showing are good, like really good. However, they are also cutting very large timber, starting with the bottom on a humboldt face in large timber has other benefits that out way cut accuracy, largely that the chunk that comes loose doesn't pinch your bar, or worse land on your foot as your messing with it. It also sets how low of a stump you can make out the gate, sometimes its hard to judge how high to start when they damned tree is over 4 or 5' in dia, so you can get your desired angle and depth without having to compromise after making the gun cut.

For most of the mere mortals out there, I will stand by my original statement that starting with the flat gun cut is easier, and more accurate.

Agreed totally. Like stated in my above post. Start with gun cut then 2nd cut to completion, then run out the gun cut & out plops the undercut. Seems much more better. I just know that some Canadians have been doing it in reversefor a while. Caught a video a while back from the 2100cd days with the reverse method being used on a very large cedar.

At least the west coast has an excuse, big heavy undercuts.
The east coast is full of folks who make the angle cut first when GOLing. Why would a tree need a hinge when it's committed much past 45⁰? Sitting there ripping the grain to hash out that very shallow, insanely open face that would peel right out of the stump like a banana being peeled,if there were any real weight on the stump.. I know they worry about wood pull & busting butt cuts, but sawing 2' at as wide of an angle as possible is retarded.
GOL ensures that whatever could take 2 minutes, will take double that.
Rabble rabble.

 

[northmanlogging]

Agreed totally. Like stated in my above post. Start with gun cut then 2nd cut to completion, then run out the gun cut & out plops the undercut. Seems much more better. I just know that some Canadians have been doing it in reversefor a while. Caught a video a while back from the 2100cd days with the reverse method being used on a very large cedar.

At least the west coast has an excuse, big heavy undercuts.
The east coast is full of folks who make the angle cut first when GOLing. Why would a tree need a hinge when it's committed much past 45⁰? Sitting there ripping the grain to hash out that very shallow, insanely open face that would peel right out of the stump like a banana being peeled,if there were any real weight on the stump.. I know they worry about wood pull & busting butt cuts, but sawing 2' at as wide of an angle as possible is retarded.
GOL ensures that whatever could take 2 minutes, will take double that.
Rabble rabble.

I still face a leaner even if its going the right direction, but yeah, putting some massive open face is lame, a little goes a long ways, just to get the tree moving in the correct direction and keep it from stalling... thats really all it needs on a leaner though.

 

[Westboastfaller]

I think Marcel cut for around 4 decades before retiring, alive.
Note the order in which he swings his 084, not on every tree, but these.

Gathered with 6-7 Fallers in camp more than a few times and heard many stories about Marcel. (Some funny ones)
Said he could cut a 12ft tree in 7 min (Cedar comes to mind under right circumstances ) sounded like it was a regular thing for him. Nobody was calling BS..I mean nobody. French Canadian right. Generally talented, hard working with massive stamina. Just excellent Fallers. Don't see them anymore. Youngest one I knew is about 47 yr now. One is my age at 55 and other, 56. All really good Fallers. When someone said Marcel is a really good Faller. The younger French guy (41 at the time with 20 yrs coast) said.."of course, he's French! but I'm not talking about me"
He was a good Faller in his own right. Did a double up on a heli block with him.

Marcel did 42 yrs. First pic was in Hinton Alberta in 1965. First pic I saw on coast wss 1970 up against a 8ft tree in Tofino BC, Van Island.
Knew a Faller in 2005 up north coast BC. Tried to get a seat with them. Certifications were just coming in that year. He was 50 and had been Falling coat for 30 yrs. I asked, "so were you able to grandfather in? He said no, you need 40 yrs. Haha.
I understand it now.
Guys start at 19-20 year. If you are 30 yrs in then you could be around for 8-12 yrs. If you are 40 yrs in then ... Just like Marcel, who was gone in 2 yrs. It's like you made it this long then who are we to try to tell you different. I agree.

There will always be exemptions when Legends are nearing to the 60 mark.
Like this one .. " Everyone has to have their log book" Then Dave says.." I don't have a log book, I don't need a log book, I haven't had one for 5 yrs"
The contractor that is asking is launching as hard as everyone else. We may laugh but all the rest comply. When worker comp was flying around visiting us ('Them' the GODS of BC) and visited Dave. When asked how it went, Dave replied.." OH NO, He RESPECTED ME, he respected me.

 

[Westboastfaller]

Here's a current video of someone well respected in the job.
Its pretty obvious which cut he makes first.

Who told you he is respected? That's. Interesting...

 

[Maintenance supervisor]

Who told you he is respected? That's. Interesting...

Interesting? Is he not respected?

 

[Westboastfaller]

Interesting? Is he not respected?

I'm not shy to talk about this biz. I have asked you two questions in a row. So since I'm the experienced BC west coast Faller then.. talk man. Start with those two questions first? It's becoming a bit disrespectful on your part.