I almost did it today.

[Ryan'smilling]

Thanks. Indulge me with this reply to flesh things out a little more as summary advice can be dangerous.

1. Weighed throw line - had one and used it. As others have pointed out to me climbing or a device to put the throw line higher may be necessary.
2. Backcutting below the face is a judgment call - risk to cutter versus other risks.
3. My errors were multiple. Cutting on the spur of the moment as a favor; not appreciating the differing characteristics of this species; taking on a challenging tree with little experience with the species; underestimating the limb load (the tree was straight); taking a short cut due to lack of equipment (if I had cut the limb off all would have been well, but had no way to reach it as it was on the bank side); thinning the hinge too much; too low rope; inadequate equipment for the job; and stressing the hinge with a tug. Probably many more misjudgments.
4. No anchor points available - sole tree of size on a bank in the edge of a field. I always pull from the front of the truck. Better view and more weight in front unless of course you have a loaded truck.

Ron

So you used a throw bag and line to set your bull rope in the tree, but couldn't get it high enough? I'm just trying to understand. The way it reads to me I can't tell if you used a weight on your bull rope or a weight on a lighter line and then pulled your rope up.

The only risk to making your back cut lower than your face cut is that the tree could slide backwards off the stump at the cutter. Really that's mostly an issue if you're felling a tree uphill. It does also make it a little more difficult to make your hinge the right thickness. Having the cuts at the same height makes it easier to judge. Making the back cut lower is a good technique to use when you're pulling a tree over, especially if you're pulling from below the center of gravity.

I wasn't meaning to say that you needed to employ all of those techniques, or that there isn't others that could get the job done safely. I just mentioned the ones in familiar with in case you didn't already know about them.

 

[rwoods]

Yes, the weight was on the throw rope. This was a fair size tree. The largest canopy locust I have ever come across. Folks have suggested the CO2 powered line guns and the rubber band slingshot type launcher to get the liner higher. If I had to do it again with the same equipment, I would have put it towards the lane with as much a side fall as I could with no rope.

I watched one of Hales videos - quite informative static versus dynamic ropes. Ron

 

[rwoods]

After that issue I did some research on what I did wrong with my notch and back cut. Also bought a wedge. I have been cutting wood for about 5 years now and only this year have i had problems. I'm beginning to think it's this 028.

I get it I'm not big on the safety department. Same deal at work. What did i do wrong today? Idk should have shut the road down and cut safely.

I get it. Sometimes you have a bad day. I don't cut near power lines and won't cut near the road anymore i will let it fall down in a storm. When I don't have to prove the laws of physics wrong I do ok. Last time I roped a large ash down against the lean with success and this time my confidence got the best of me. Next tree I will do some more thinking before I cut the notch.

Keep up your research and think through each bad experience step by step - what did I do and how did the tree react? Then figure out why. May be something unavoidable or may be something a different technique would have prevented. Most likely it isn’t the saw though there are situations where you need fast cutting. You will never know it all or cut them all without mishap. Some of the reasons I enjoy it so much.

Ron

 

[Mustang71]

The tree was like a banana hanging over the road. Backside to the woods. It would have been a 10 minute fell and clean up. I tried avoiding the road which turned into an hour of nonsense. Only experience would have helped on that decision.

 

[Ryan'smilling]

Experience is the best way to learn. My situation today would have been solved by closing the road down or having a bucket lift. Any dumby home owner would have dropped it backwards into the road not trying to prevent it or avoid it. The tree was very dead and had no bark on it. It was less than 25 feet tall and about 12 inches in diameter.

The tree was like a banana hanging over the road. Backside to the woods. It would have been a 10 minute fell and clean up. I tried avoiding the road which turned into an hour of nonsense. Only experience would have helped on that decision.

You keep talking about "experience" . Well, experience is good, but you need training too. That's actually written in the handbook I got from the instruction I took. "Logging is extremely dangerous, on the job training is not an acceptable way to learn" or something to that effect. Yes, you will get better the more experience you get, BUT, the stakes are too high to start from scratch. Bucking logs from a pile? Sure, go ahead. Dropping trees? By a road? Nope. There's a reason that Canada makes all of the timber fallers who work there take an extensive safety class before they go into the woods. They don't just tell them to go cut timber and figure that "only experience would help". I'm sorry; experience helps, and it is a good way to learn some things. But, it's not the best way to learn tree felling.

Here's a good example: it's great that you bought a wedge. Canada requires all timber fallers to have at least 3 within reach. There's a good lesson you can learn in a classroom, not by experience (when your only wedge is buried, your tree is all cut up and not falling and you can't do anything about it).

Another example: wedging over dead trees is a bad idea. They are very prone to dropping dead limbs, which can kill the feller (especially if he's not wearing a hard hat). Also, dead brittle hinge wood isn't very reliable. This is easily taught in a classroom. Yes, you could learn this "by experience", but the branch hitting you in the noggin will care even less about your feelings than I do. While you may not like hearing it from me, I can not suggest strongly enough to go take some training. Look up Game of Logging. I too have been cutting wood since I was a teenager. I took the class with several other guys with a fair amount of experience. I tell you what though, that day changed a lot about the way I work in the woods. All you've got to do is come with an open mind and check your ego at the door. I did and I'm a safer cutter for doing it.

 

[woodfarmer]

I have to agree with @Ryan, it sounds like you're way over your experiance level at felling leaners. There is a huge difference in felling trees in the middle of the bush where exact landings are not critical vs urban areas.
I too have made many mistakes along the way, but where the tree is critical you must know your limitations, which at times I have called in a tree service.
If you're determined to tackle these yourself again, you need to take all the time necessary and use the proper equipment.

 

[panolo]

Glad your ok! Lessons to be learned everyday.

I snapped a wedge on a tree yesterday and it started to turn on me. Scared the heck out of me. I was lucky enough that it didn't spit all the wedge out and I had a sliver left but when I grabbed another it did the same. It was the first time I had used the yellow oregon wedges. I had bought a 4 pack and the two left went into the trash. They were brand new. I have never snapped a husky wedge. Hit plenty of them with the saw though I ordered 8 more when I got home last night.

Considered myself very lucky that it didn't sit back or barber chair. I was able to get it over safely just not in the spot I wanted.

 

[svk]

The tree was like a banana hanging over the road. Backside to the woods. It would have been a 10 minute fell and clean up. I tried avoiding the road which turned into an hour of nonsense. Only experience would have helped on that decision.

Ah that makes sense. I've tried to directionally fall these and it's always ended poorly for me. Poorly meaning they always fall exactly where they were leaning.

We get a lot of ash like this near the lake and when I was living further south, the boxelder did the same on fence rows.

 

[Mustang71]

I'm not in an urban area. I was on the edge of the woods where I live. Typically direction doesn't matter. Guiding it down didn't go as planned. It wasn't that big of a tree so I tried it. Had it been bigger I would have left it alone. I have 3 ash trees that are totally dead leaning on other tree and I refuse to try to cut them. I'm not stupid I misjuded the situation.

 

[Ted Jenkins]

OK Mustang you have received some great advice please listen and use it to your advantage. I never did learn much at college or the class room about usable information concerning tree work. Today however the safety classes are way more practical. In my forty's and fifty's had to take several classes to have proper credentials for insurance licences and permits. Pretty much all the classes I could have taught with more practical details, but that does not mean I learned nothing. My biggest teacher was to watch good techniche and disasters. When I was 14 just started cutting trees with no advice or teaching knowing that a mistake would cost me my life. So got into the habit of planning every move with a what if plan. Last fall I had a 30'' Oak + or - that was at least 15 tons. It was leaning over a fence and roadway. I did not want to explain why the road was blocked or fix the fence that would likely cost me a week of time so wanted to fall it uphill regardless the cost. A sling shot with a weighted contractors line will get you 50' up a tree or a small crossbow will get you 80 to 90' when climbing is unsafe. My rule of thumb is to go at least 50% up the tree for minimum leverage or 75% is even better. This particular tree was about 80' tall with deep pockets of decay and a steady highway of ants going through it so climbing was not an option. So shot four lines at about 50' two of them were 50,000 lb test and two of them were 20,000 lb test of course if you have cables or chain that works too. I considered running 1/2 steel cable, but I knew that what I had would not break. So ran the line to two trees and seven 4,000 lb come alongs. It took most of the day to rig with the lines and come alongs. It took the previous day to get the lines in a good position on the tree and then the third day to start cranking the come alongs. After 2 hours of cranking the tree started to move and hour latter it was safely down with a small green branch as a victim of the operation. The tree did twist a little as it broke from the stump which is why I caught a small green branch. Any tree can be brought down safely if the right planning takes place and no body gets into a hurry Thanks.

 

[Mustang71]

Maybe there are some good classes around here idk. I'm not real fond of schools that teach about real life situations. We get kids all the time who went to school for hvac and they get cut in the first 3 minutes because they never handled sheet metal before. They can't swing a hammer or use a pipe wrench. Don't know anything about electrical. The worst part is they think they know it all because they went to school. They are dangerous.

I don't have anyone to show me the ropes with cutting trees so I'm trying to do the best I can. I'm aware of my souroundings and try to pay attention to everything. I do do research and watch videos. I usually have success but occasionally I mess up. I underestimated this tree thinking it was little and no big deal.

 

[Mustang71]

I had a chunk of ice fall off a roof about 30 feet above me when I was doing an a.c. a couple springs ago. I herd it fall and jumped to the house and covered my head. It landed right next to me. Survived that day too. I always try to pay attention to my souroundings and keep my ears open. That one was not my fault, just life testing me I guess.

 

[nighthunter]

Not everyone can be thought in a classroom, I know I can't. I learn by getting hands on and figuring out from my mistakes. Mustang71 was brave enough to admit that he made a mistake and has learned from that

 

[KMatt]

I have been cutting since probably 11-12 years old. Past six years it’s been part of my job which involves land management but most trees I’ve fallen lately were snags on fire during a prescribed burn. I was confident and thought I was decent to pretty good. We took a class put on by an arborist. In that one day class, which was mostly hands on, I learned a lot of safer techniques. But most importantly I learned I didn’t know as much as I thought I did about falling. I’m more careful and safer for it.

 

[Ted Jenkins]

Yeah Mustang you are right in knowing you have to make some mistakes before you know it all. However try to not drop the tree on your head it will be one less person that I would have to argue with. You do realize that the small innocent trees are the ones that kill. Thanks

 

[c5rulz]

Didn't you recently have another sort of serious Fu©k up?

That's right, I found it:



So, after these two events I'm going to make a couple of strongly worded recommendations.

One: get a hard hat. Don't argue. Get a hard hat. Tapping wedges and felling trees is a job that requires one. Your hat is not safety gear.

Two: take a goddammed safety class. I see you're an HVAC professional. Would you do your job without any training? Why do you think you can buy a couple of Stihl saws and start dropping trees? Obviously you know enough to be dangerous, but not to do things safely. I'm no professional either, but about 5 years ago I took a great one day safety class from a forestry safety organization. Am I an expert now? No. But I know what I can safely handle, and I know when to call in help. I think I recall you saying that you burn firewood. Well, that's great. Firewood is a lovely heat source. Cutting wood is great exercise and can be very fun. It's also super dangerous. Don't take it lightly. Saving a couple hundred a month on your heat bill isn't worth getting maimed or worse. Sounds like you've got a family. Bet they'd like to keep you around...


I understand that I might sound like a di©k right now, but this is serious business. You need to learn from your mistakes before you make one you won't be around to learn from.

You keep talking about "experience" . Well, experience is good, but you need training too. That's actually written in the handbook I got from the instruction I took. "Logging is extremely dangerous, on the job training is not an acceptable way to learn" or something to that effect. Yes, you will get better the more experience you get, BUT, the stakes are too high to start from scratch. Bucking logs from a pile? Sure, go ahead. Dropping trees? By a road? Nope. There's a reason that Canada makes all of the timber fallers who work there take an extensive safety class before they go into the woods. They don't just tell them to go cut timber and figure that "only experience would help". I'm sorry; experience helps, and it is a good way to learn some things. But, it's not the best way to learn tree felling.

Here's a good example: it's great that you bought a wedge. Canada requires all timber fallers to have at least 3 within reach. There's a good lesson you can learn in a classroom, not by experience (when your only wedge is buried, your tree is all cut up and not falling and you can't do anything about it).

Another example: wedging over dead trees is a bad idea. They are very prone to dropping dead limbs, which can kill the feller (especially if he's not wearing a hard hat). Also, dead brittle hinge wood isn't very reliable. This is easily taught in a classroom. Yes, you could learn this "by experience", but the branch hitting you in the noggin will care even less about your feelings than I do. While you may not like hearing it from me, I can not suggest strongly enough to go take some training. Look up Game of Logging. I too have been cutting wood since I was a teenager. I took the class with several other guys with a fair amount of experience. I tell you what though, that day changed a lot about the way I work in the woods. All you've got to do is come with an open mind and check your ego at the door. I did and I'm a safer cutter for doing it.

Can't agree more.

The Terry Hale videos are the best I have seen especially when he makes calculations regarding the forces involved.

FWIW, the biggest mistake I see people make is NOT LOOKING UP! Everything that will kill you is above you. If you are experienced enough to be cutting problem trees, you shouldn't have to look at the saw and tree during the final parts of the felling cut.

 

[user 122190]

More often then not, there seems to be some adventure in dropping every tree. I've gotten knocked a few times, equipment destroyed, etc. It is good to hear of others near misses, as a reminder that nothing is to be taken for granted.

 

[Mustang71]

More often then not, there seems to be some adventure in dropping every tree. I've gotten knocked a few times, equipment destroyed, etc. It is good to hear of others near misses, as a reminder that nothing is to be taken for granted.

That was y I was telling my story. I wasn't trying to get yelled at lol.

 

[c5rulz]

That was y I was telling my story. I wasn't trying to get yelled at lol.

Well it is a whole lot better to get yelled at than be hospitalized or worse.

 

[Mustang71]

Well it is a whole lot better to get yelled at than be hospitalized or worse.

Yes but if I wanted to get yelled at I would have told my mom about it.