Outdoor boiler smoking up the neighborhood

[Butch(OH)]

I have been mostly quiet about the outside boiler and smoke deal but I am pretty certain smoke is be blown up somewhere besides thin air :hmm3grin2orange: if you know what I mean, LOL I am not sure what other people call bad smoke, I am just sure what I call bad smoke and I am not getting it from mine nor do i see it from the 6 or so others than I can see from my home.I see clear stacks when burning, a slight wisp coming from the stacks when of on hi limit and brief periods of smoke when going back to burn cycle. For the benefit of those who are looking into an outside boiler here is a picture of my Woodmaster on full burn about 2 minutes after being shut down all day on high limit (high water temp) How could any responsible person buy a device that smokes so bad??? Fuel is 1/2 Cherry and 1/2 Beech split and seasoned. I wonder how bad an EPA approve stove would smoke burning garbage, wet wood and railroad ties as in the smoky pics the anti's like to post? My hi-ef wood stoves smoke all day long if the drafts are set right, the Woodmaster smokes for a minute every time it cycles on. Now which is harder to live with if your the neighbor? smoke all day or a small percentage of the day?

 

[Butch(OH)]

Another view from the front

<IMG SRC=http://tinypic.com/2u7vti8.jpg>

 

[olyman]

butch--each and every so called enviromentalist ought be hung by thumbnails till death--and report what happened to them all over the country--jerks---

 

[Rspike]

Wow ! There are a LOT of smoke stains on that stack! Holy cow. I'm glad you posted the pic's of the smoke stained pipe , thats what people need to see. The issue with the outdoor boilers is not when it "running in its prime" its the over all 24 hour burning shutting down , starting back up and when it setting at idol. All the smoke stain on your stack came from some where and i know you didnt buy it that way. Here is a few pics of a EPA woodstove pipe on my house and 1 on my garage after many years of running and never cleaned per the out side. We'll let the pic's speak for them selves. They didnt ban the old pot belly stoves and the older non epa stoves for no reason ..... denial is not proof. Why dont wood wood boiler companies have there stoves tested per EPA ? .........humm ............... Why dont they list the grams per hour of emissions from an over all burn ? Anybody smart enought and that does there home work on any stove can figure it out. Why are towns and countys baning out door wood boilers ? I'm sure glad i did my reasearch before buying and didnt put $5,000 - $30,000 down on a outdoor wood bioler that could get the boot from my town at any time. You think the wood boiler company is going to give a refund once a ban happens ? Lets look at the pic's .

 

[Rspike]

 

[Rspike]

 

[CaseyForrest]

I dont know about you, but living in the country means you are going to smell and see things you wont see in the city. Some of us move out to the country because we like the smell of fert. time in the fields, the smell of burning wood during the winter. You may be right about outdoor boilers needing to be more efficient. How efficient do you think the Model A was compared to todays cars? It all takes time.

Spike, by your account all fireplaces, and outdoor firepits need to be banned too. You want to go along with a ban on outdoor boilers? Thats fine, your right. But dont expect everyone else to fall in line behind you.

 

[CaseyForrest]

Unless you lodaed those burners, you dont know what the owner is throwing in them. Hence, you cant hold the manufacturer responsible for the output.

 

[Rspike]

Look at the pic's ............ Its not hard to see all the wood piles. No railroad ties. I'm not making this up ....... theres the pics . How do you think Butch(OH) stove pipe got so much smoke stain on it ? ........hummm........SMOKE!? All I'm saying is "THERE IT IS" see for your self. The outdoor boiler co.'s need to change there ways otherwise they wont be around , the the owners of our door boilers now could loose there rights to use there $5k - $30K stoves.

Spike, by your account all fireplaces, and outdoor firepits need to be banned too. You want to go along with a ban on outdoor boilers? Thats fine, your right. But dont expect everyone else to fall in line behind you.

No , I do not want a ban on out door wood boilers ...... They need to be up to par. There such a waste of wood and nasty and they make wood burning all togother look bad. I know if i bought a wood boiler for the high $$ they are and they were ban and i couldnt use mine i would be pi$$ed to say the least . I dont think you need to put words into my mouth CF.

 

[Rspike]

Why Is There Controversy?
OWBs tend to cause dense smoke that impacts neighbors who complain about nuisance and health problems. Most OWBs come equipped with very short stacks. The smoke from these low stacks disperses poorly. In addition, the owners often operate the OWBs to heat hot water or swimming pools during the summer when neighbors have their windows open and are trying to enjoy the outdoors.

What Causes OWBs To Smoke?

Most OWBs employ very primitive combustion technology. When the water circulating through the furnace reaches an upper set point (usually around 180°F) the air supply to the fire is cut-off, cooling the fire so the water will not overheat. The furnace operates in this "idle" mode until the water temperature hits a lower set point and the air supply is re-established.
Under some conditions, the OWB may be in idle mode far longer than in operating mode. This type of operating causes very poor combustion and heavy foul smoke. Most of the smoke emitted is fine condensed organic material that does not burn under cool, oxygen starved conditions. In addition, many owners burn green wood full of moisture which also causes poor combustion. Wood from the outdoor winter wood pile may be very cold when loaded into the OWB causing an even colder fire.
read this
Are OWBs Worse Than Indoor Woodstoves?
Yes. Newly manufactured indoor woodstoves are required to meet strict US EPA particulate emissions standards, 4.1 grams per hour for catalytic stoves and 7.5 g/hr for noncatalytic stoves. Certification tests are conducted in EPA approved laboratories. As expected, emissions during actual use are somewhat higher.
In contrast, the New York State Attorney General's office found that average emissions during laboratory testing of OWBs was 81.6 g/hr or roughly ten times the particulate emission rate from indoor woodstoves. Although older style indoor wood stoves emit more than new certified stoves, they are still several times less polluting than OWBs. Due to the poor combustion conditions, it is also probable that OWBs emit proportionately more benzene, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, formaldehyde and other toxic partial combustion products which have been linked to asthma, heart attacks and cancer.

 

[Big Woody]

You pinheads are missing the obvious solution. Don't ban the boilers, just have
a fine for someone who throws junk in and smokes up the valley. Health dept, local sheriff or whatever can give the citation. If it smokes up the area no matter what one puts in, they will be fined out of existance anyway.

 

[CaseyForrest]

Why Is There Controversy?
OWBs tend to cause dense smoke that impacts neighbors who complain about nuisance and health problems. Most OWBs come equipped with very short stacks. The smoke from these low stacks disperses poorly. In addition, the owners often operate the OWBs to heat hot water or swimming pools during the summer when neighbors have their windows open and are trying to enjoy the outdoors.

What Causes OWBs To Smoke?

Most OWBs employ very primitive combustion technology. When the water circulating through the furnace reaches an upper set point (usually around 180°F) the air supply to the fire is cut-off, cooling the fire so the water will not overheat. The furnace operates in this "idle" mode until the water temperature hits a lower set point and the air supply is re-established.
Under some conditions, the OWB may be in idle mode far longer than in operating mode. This type of operating causes very poor combustion and heavy foul smoke. Most of the smoke emitted is fine condensed organic material that does not burn under cool, oxygen starved conditions. In addition, many owners burn green wood full of moisture which also causes poor combustion. Wood from the outdoor winter wood pile may be very cold when loaded into the OWB causing an even colder fire.
read this
Are OWBs Worse Than Indoor Woodstoves?
Yes. Newly manufactured indoor woodstoves are required to meet strict US EPA particulate emissions standards, 4.1 grams per hour for catalytic stoves and 7.5 g/hr for noncatalytic stoves. Certification tests are conducted in EPA approved laboratories. As expected, emissions during actual use are somewhat higher.
In contrast, the New York State Attorney General's office found that average emissions during laboratory testing of OWBs was 81.6 g/hr or roughly ten times the particulate emission rate from indoor woodstoves. Although older style indoor wood stoves emit more than new certified stoves, they are still several times less polluting than OWBs. Due to the poor combustion conditions, it is also probable that OWBs emit proportionately more benzene, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, formaldehyde and other toxic partial combustion products which have been linked to asthma, heart attacks and cancer.

OK, you obviously have the numbers down for OWB. How about pollution numbers for those who heat their homes and water with electricity? NG and propane too. Lets also look at Cost, whats it cost to heat with Elec, NG, and or Propane? Whats the cost to pollution ratio?

If you really want to get on a non-polluting, EPA kick, youd stop buring wood altogether and go Geo-Thermal.

 

[JeffHK454]

Is efficiency of the outdoor boiler the problem or is it sizing?


JH

 

[Rspike]

OK, you obviously have the numbers down for OWB. How about pollution numbers for those who heat their homes and water with electricity? NG and propane too. Lets also look at Cost, whats it cost to heat with Elec, NG, and or Propane? Whats the cost to pollution ratio?

If you really want to get on a non-polluting, EPA kick, youd stop buring wood altogether and go Geo-Thermal.

Good topic ......... do the research and let us know. I did the research on wood burning stoves thus is why i backed out of a wood boiler deal and went with a EPA indoor wood stove. All that smoke is energy so if there is no smoke than its being used as heat and not turned into smoke out the stack as grams per hour of emissions. My wood stove is 3.2 grams per hour of smoke emissions and the average out door boiler is 81.6 grams per hour. Thats a he(( of a lot of waste. When New York did there test on out door wood boilers i would find it hard to believe that they used railroad ties.

 

[Rspike]

Is efficiency of the outdoor boiler the problem or is it sizing?


JH

#1 no secondary combustion burning chamber #2 they shut down and idle and smoke and start back up and smoke . #3 the water on the out side of the fire box cools down the fire box and causes the combustion to cool and makes the wood smoke because its not getting hot enough to ignite the emissions (smoke). #4 pipe stacks are not tall enough. ect...ect...

 

[Rspike]

double post.

 

[JeffHK454]

#1 no secondary combustion burning chamber #2 they shut down and idle and smoke and start back up and smoke . #3 the water on the out side of the fire box cools down the fire box and causes the combustion to cool and makes the wood smoke because its not getting hot enough to ignite the emissions (smoke). #4 pipe stacks are not tall enough. ect...ect...

I'm trying to understand #1, not it's merit just a visualization of how smoke travels through a high efficiency wood stove. Are there strategically placed diverters inside to direct smoke back into the flame for a re-burn effect?

#2, #3 and #4 make good sense.

JH

 

[Butch(OH)]

Spike, I cant prove on this forum that my boiler does not smoke like your internet found pictures ( I never said it didnt smoke at all did i?) but you are welcome to come on over and take a chair and watch mine and the 5-6 others within a mile. I'll even bring out some coffee while your waiting for the smoke plumes that never appear. You can also look at and take pictures of the chimney from my wood stove which is stained just like the Woodmaster and if you want I can make it smoke just like your boiler pics and maybe you will post them? There is one more thing I will do and two things I wont do. One is I will respect your opinion and the other two are I will not attack your position with third hand information like pictures from the internet and I wont call you a liar,, as you have done to me. Have a nice evening.

 

[Rspike]

I'm trying to understand #1, not it's merit just a visualization of how smoke travels through a high efficiency wood stove. Are there strategically placed diverters inside to direct smoke back into the flame for a re-burn effect?

#2, #3 and #4 make good sense.

JH

There are two types of secondary burn chambers. one is a cat combuster like you have on your car/truck and the smoke that does not get burned in the fire is sent through the cat burner and the smoke is burned and turned into heat before going up the stack/pipe. The second one is the secondary burn chamber that is in the top of the fire box that gets super heated from the fire and the air flow run through from a second air supply and when the smoke goes by the secondary burn chamber the smoke gasses are lit off to burn the smoke and turns it into heat before going up the pipe. Here is a picture of my style of stove ( Pacific Energy Summit ) with the smoke gasses being lit off and burned buy the secondary burn chamber. Note the top flames are burning the smoke gasses. pic#1 top of fire box burning gasses. #2 secondary burn chamber with no fire.

 

[Rspike]

Spike, I cant prove on this forum that my boiler does not smoke like your internet found pictures ( I never said it didnt smoke at all did i?) but you are welcome to come on over and take a chair and watch mine and the 5-6 others within a mile. I'll even bring out some coffee while your waiting for the smoke plumes that never appear. You can also look at and take pictures of the chimney from my wood stove which is stained just like the Woodmaster and if you want I can make it smoke just like your boiler pics and maybe you will post them? There is one more thing I will do and two things I wont do. One is I will respect your opinion and the other two are I will not attack your position with third hand information like pictures from the internet and I wont call you a liar,, as you have done to me. Have a nice evening.

Butch , if i am misinformed and you have a lead to update wood boiler information Please post it. I'm going off what i know and all the research information i found when looking into a outside wood boiler for my home. My information with your stove and questions is ........ how does your stove pipe get so much smoke stains with the lack of smoke ? ALL stoves will smoke some when starting a new fire and or on a refill of new wood but i havent seen a EPA stove with smoke stains. I'm not here to call your a liar , I'm just posting any information that i know and have found. We have outdoor wood boilers in our town and from what i have seen that all of them smoke real bad most all Spring / Winter and into Fall.