lees trees
ArboristSite Operative
I probably should have asked earlier here goes. what if you cain't get any wheeled vehicle near the leaning tree what method will you use?
Using a truck to pull a tree down
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Grace Tree
Impossible Access
I use mules and bungee cord. If the tree goes the wrong way it will sometimes fling the mules in the air taking the homeowners mind off the damage.
Works for me,
Phil
If pulling the tree with a truck or winch is not an option. Eepending on the size of the tree, I would say I would use a rope puller or portable winch or grcs or maybe set up my Tree Pulling Kit from Sherrill that I learned how to use at an ArborMaster Precision Felling Seminar.
But I would say if I can't get a truck in to pull it...there probably isn't room to fell it but i can think of some instances where you could fell it but not get a truck in there. So I would say we would climb those trees and piece them down.
When I go look at a tree for an estimate or to write up a work order I usually go through a checklist. I look at the tree and the shape it is in, I look at the hazards and obstacles that I need to work around, I look at whether it is a climber or bucket or both, I look at many things to help me come up with an initial work plan. I look at the risk of the method of getting the tree down so if the tree is not a good tree to be pulled (i.e. not too much lean in opposite direction, lots of good holding wood, large landing zone, ground conditions, safe work area to work, etc.). But ultimately, if I think it is risker to pull it than climb it or use bucket, i do the later. I only use the pull method if all the variables can be managed. I don't like pulling heavy leaners and trees with alot of rot as those variables are harder to manage. I would say i use a truck to make sure the tree goes where I want it more so than I do to make a tree go somewhere it isn't going to go. For example, if the tree where hollow i probably would not pull it as the risk would be too great. I have cut plenty of hollow trees doing TSI work and they can be tricky. I am sure everyone has seen trees do some funky things on the stump.
As I said before, I pre-qualify a tree for pulling. It is not my rule of thumb to do that first. I do what the situation calls for. I believe many people in the industry rely on this method to get a tree on the ground as they do not take the time to learn good rigging techniques. I am just defending the position that there is a time and place for pulling trees with a truck, but it needs to be thought out carefully and the work should be planned and communicated before you start.
But I would say if I can't get a truck in to pull it...there probably isn't room to fell it but i can think of some instances where you could fell it but not get a truck in there. So I would say we would climb those trees and piece them down.
When I go look at a tree for an estimate or to write up a work order I usually go through a checklist. I look at the tree and the shape it is in, I look at the hazards and obstacles that I need to work around, I look at whether it is a climber or bucket or both, I look at many things to help me come up with an initial work plan. I look at the risk of the method of getting the tree down so if the tree is not a good tree to be pulled (i.e. not too much lean in opposite direction, lots of good holding wood, large landing zone, ground conditions, safe work area to work, etc.). But ultimately, if I think it is risker to pull it than climb it or use bucket, i do the later. I only use the pull method if all the variables can be managed. I don't like pulling heavy leaners and trees with alot of rot as those variables are harder to manage. I would say i use a truck to make sure the tree goes where I want it more so than I do to make a tree go somewhere it isn't going to go. For example, if the tree where hollow i probably would not pull it as the risk would be too great. I have cut plenty of hollow trees doing TSI work and they can be tricky. I am sure everyone has seen trees do some funky things on the stump.
As I said before, I pre-qualify a tree for pulling. It is not my rule of thumb to do that first. I do what the situation calls for. I believe many people in the industry rely on this method to get a tree on the ground as they do not take the time to learn good rigging techniques. I am just defending the position that there is a time and place for pulling trees with a truck, but it needs to be thought out carefully and the work should be planned and communicated before you start.
lees trees
ArboristSite Operative
teamtree with all those tree felling techniques you still prefer pulling with a truck? are your employees able to this also without you there? I think it might be OK for small wood those mules won't last forever. thanks
joesawer
Addicted to ArboristSite
LOL, Now that right there is funny, I don't care who ya are.
Tree Machine did me good
I've always been interested in trees but lacked knowledge. I found Tree Machine on arboristsite.com just to get some firewood. Now 24 hours later I have nearly a rick of wood and a rekindled interest in how trees are dismantled. Great website. Thanks for the wood!
Indianapolis
I've always been interested in trees but lacked knowledge. I found Tree Machine on arboristsite.com just to get some firewood. Now 24 hours later I have nearly a rick of wood and a rekindled interest in how trees are dismantled. Great website. Thanks for the wood!
Indianapolis
lees trees.....yes, i feel it is a quick and safe way to get a tree on the ground. I am sorry but it does take a little more time to hook up a pulling system or winch to another tree or something that is stable. And in some cases does not offer any For instance today we cut a 18" dbh / 55' pine tree it was pretty straight maybe a lean in the direction i wanted it to fall, pretty much dead (little wind sail). There was a steep drop off in the opposite direction that would have made the clean up a bear. The tree weighed approximately 4000 pounds. I installed a pull rope in the tree and cut my notch. I had my assistant apply some pressure to the rope with a JD tractor which is 4X4 and weighs approximately 4000 pounds with loader and weights. I intalled the rope approximately 30' feet into the tree. I instructed my assistant to pull when i gave him the signal. I started my back cut and installed a wedge and finished my back cut and hit the wedge a few times backed off and signaled for Seth to pull. The tree went exactly where i wanted it to and we worked in the shade while cleaning it up. If the tree was a little bigger i would have used a 4x4 3500 or if bigger I would have used a 12k winch on dump truck so on and so on. Or let's say a power line was in the background that may be an issue...well I would say we would use a bucket truck or a climber and limbed it out leaving on the spar to be dropped.
To answer your question, my workers know how to do this but I do 90% of all the cutting. I have a sub-contract climber/operator who I will let cut any tree any time as he taught me much of what I know.
Once again, I am not advocating that is ok to pull any tree any time. I am saying that in some cases, rather than using a climber or bucket, it is safer to pull a tree. If the tree is a heavy leaner, I really weigh out all other options before pulling it back up over center. Again, for instance, we had a heavy leaner along a fairway and the customer did not want the tree to hit the fairway. We used a bucket truck to take off several limbs and some weight but we could not reach the top 1/3 of the tree so we installed a guide rope. The tree was dead and not safe for a climber to go up to the top of the tree. The tree was about 100' tall and about 34" dbh. Using the steps describe earlier, we had two people hold traffic along the road, one guy cutting and I was on the tractor and one guy was on the golf course watching for golfers and workers). The notch was cut and I applied pressure to the rope. The cutter made his backcut and installed a couple of wedges. He finished his back cut and pulled his saw out and got in a safe position. He signaled for me to pull and the tree went where we wanted it too. So we did not feel it was necessary to put a climber in danger or any safer to use two cranes or whatever method one may suggest. We did it in safest possible manner, in our opinions and we got the job done safely without any undue risk other than the tree falling on to the fairway. I would rather fix turf then tell someone their spouse and father is dead because he climbed a tree that he really did not need to climb.
To answer your question, my workers know how to do this but I do 90% of all the cutting. I have a sub-contract climber/operator who I will let cut any tree any time as he taught me much of what I know.
Once again, I am not advocating that is ok to pull any tree any time. I am saying that in some cases, rather than using a climber or bucket, it is safer to pull a tree. If the tree is a heavy leaner, I really weigh out all other options before pulling it back up over center. Again, for instance, we had a heavy leaner along a fairway and the customer did not want the tree to hit the fairway. We used a bucket truck to take off several limbs and some weight but we could not reach the top 1/3 of the tree so we installed a guide rope. The tree was dead and not safe for a climber to go up to the top of the tree. The tree was about 100' tall and about 34" dbh. Using the steps describe earlier, we had two people hold traffic along the road, one guy cutting and I was on the tractor and one guy was on the golf course watching for golfers and workers). The notch was cut and I applied pressure to the rope. The cutter made his backcut and installed a couple of wedges. He finished his back cut and pulled his saw out and got in a safe position. He signaled for me to pull and the tree went where we wanted it too. So we did not feel it was necessary to put a climber in danger or any safer to use two cranes or whatever method one may suggest. We did it in safest possible manner, in our opinions and we got the job done safely without any undue risk other than the tree falling on to the fairway. I would rather fix turf then tell someone their spouse and father is dead because he climbed a tree that he really did not need to climb.
lees trees
ArboristSite Operative
I do appreciate your taking the time to describe your method and your reason for it. its a big responsibility to keep every one safe so you cut again tomorrow. I know you take that seriously me too. For me its harder to pull with a rolling vehicle
I can understand why you have concerns about a using a rolling vehicle. I think if you saw what I pull you would say...oh...that is no big deal. I don't like to take risks, especially where it may hurt my business if the "what if" happens. I am usually the guy in the group saying "yeah, but what if" and then we work a little harder to do it a safer way. If I had a tree that is bigger than the vehicle then I would tie off and use a winch on the big truck or piece it down. I would never put myself in a position where if the tree started to go the wrong way, it would pull the truck. As I said, I like to manage the risk down to an acceptable level and make sure we are doing it the safest way possible. Alot of times my bid is for the safer method and someone else will come in and pull a tree I would piece down. They would then cut the limbs and throw them on back of a truck and spend three days cleaning up what we would do in a half day. Those are the guys that drive me nuts in this business. They take the risks I wouldn't and lots of times they don't have problems. But it only takes one time to be out of business.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
I have a seperate lowering device, the old style port a wrap that stays on a big shackle in the back of the cab of a 4x4 p/u w/ auto trans....
It takes about 30 seconds to snap that onto the the pindle hitch and take some wraps... Even then I really only like two of the many people I work with to be driving... the danger is that if an inexperienced driver takes off too soon they can barber chair the trunk or rip out the top... I generally set my pull lines mighty high, especially on backleaners... I'll use a 200' piece of true blue, a 1/2" double braid or 5/8 double braid to pull with... the later two don't have much other use these days, and the former is about to be retired...
I Also prefer 4x4 low on dry pavement... any question about traction and I won;t hesitate to set up a 3:1 z rig and then pull with the truck... And I often will use a redirect block and long rope to get the trck on blacktop or pulling downhill etc...
When all the right equipment is handy it is mighty fast and effective, but you have to know how to cut a clean and proper sized hinge and work with people that know what they are doing... Otherwise you can get in trouble... I've rigged out spars rather than pull with trucks when I had an inexperienced crew and didn;t like the conditions for pulling with a truck...
It takes about 30 seconds to snap that onto the the pindle hitch and take some wraps... Even then I really only like two of the many people I work with to be driving... the danger is that if an inexperienced driver takes off too soon they can barber chair the trunk or rip out the top... I generally set my pull lines mighty high, especially on backleaners... I'll use a 200' piece of true blue, a 1/2" double braid or 5/8 double braid to pull with... the later two don't have much other use these days, and the former is about to be retired...
I Also prefer 4x4 low on dry pavement... any question about traction and I won;t hesitate to set up a 3:1 z rig and then pull with the truck... And I often will use a redirect block and long rope to get the trck on blacktop or pulling downhill etc...
When all the right equipment is handy it is mighty fast and effective, but you have to know how to cut a clean and proper sized hinge and work with people that know what they are doing... Otherwise you can get in trouble... I've rigged out spars rather than pull with trucks when I had an inexperienced crew and didn;t like the conditions for pulling with a truck...
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
If I used rope it would be at least 3/4 a breaking rope to me is a scary
thought. I want gear stronger than needed as if there is a mistake I want
it to be something I did or did not do ,not my choice of gear!
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Jon Denver
ArboristSite Operative
Hi Yall
New to site with first post.
I have been climbing trees for 15 years and have pulled over more trees than I can count. I have even tried to pull to much with almost disasterous result. Both mishaps were with a d6 loader. First on was a monterey pine with 20 inch dia by 80 foot and a 25 degree backlean over high tensh. Eddie the loader driver got way to exited and pulled with all his might before my signal and I had not even cut more than 2 inch into my backcut. The tree barberchaired 10 feet and pivoted over my head. I dropped my saw and ran tripped and fell through a strawberry field as the tree fell 90 degrees to the fall breaking through the high tension lines, landing on the secondarys and pulling both power poles over toward each other. The high lines came down right behind me through my escape route.
The second time was with a d6 but was my fault. 140 foot high by 90 inch diamiter Eucalyptus, no exageration. My Husky 396 w/ 48 inch bar barely reached the middle on the quarter cut. The tree had major backweight. My boss at the time bought a brand new 3/4 inch 20,000 lbs arborplex and brought an old rusty steel cable as a backup. I rigged the lines so at mid rope stretch on the rope the steel cable would come taught so it was relatively equalized. The pie cut took 45 minutes and required 3 people to remove it. The backcut was an overhead cut due to the larger root crown and road cut. I quartered one side, then the other, lots of wedges, pull, pound, pull, cut, pound and then snap! The steel cable broke, tree came back on rope streach onto the wedges. I was as scarred as I have ever been in my life. I had a ground man remove the neighbors from their house, we had lots of insurance. The wedges just sunk into the wood and were only usefull to not pinch my bar. The bull rope was so streached it was half of its diamiter. I dared not have the loader pull any more. After discussing options for 20 minutes I left my saw off and probed with the tip to feel how my hinge was shaped in there and low and behold I discovered small "islands" of holding wood The trunk was so big I missed in there a few times. So I cut these off, could now get the wedges in and the tree came over, then it was time for lunch.
In summary: pulling with heavy equipment makes it to tempting to over do it. I use my toyota most of the time now, or piece it out. Having PD insurance really helps with confidence as well. I run my own buissness now and cant afford it so now I am very conservative around houses. We will see how chicken I get on next weeks Douglass Fir removal.
New to site with first post.
I have been climbing trees for 15 years and have pulled over more trees than I can count. I have even tried to pull to much with almost disasterous result. Both mishaps were with a d6 loader. First on was a monterey pine with 20 inch dia by 80 foot and a 25 degree backlean over high tensh. Eddie the loader driver got way to exited and pulled with all his might before my signal and I had not even cut more than 2 inch into my backcut. The tree barberchaired 10 feet and pivoted over my head. I dropped my saw and ran tripped and fell through a strawberry field as the tree fell 90 degrees to the fall breaking through the high tension lines, landing on the secondarys and pulling both power poles over toward each other. The high lines came down right behind me through my escape route.
The second time was with a d6 but was my fault. 140 foot high by 90 inch diamiter Eucalyptus, no exageration. My Husky 396 w/ 48 inch bar barely reached the middle on the quarter cut. The tree had major backweight. My boss at the time bought a brand new 3/4 inch 20,000 lbs arborplex and brought an old rusty steel cable as a backup. I rigged the lines so at mid rope stretch on the rope the steel cable would come taught so it was relatively equalized. The pie cut took 45 minutes and required 3 people to remove it. The backcut was an overhead cut due to the larger root crown and road cut. I quartered one side, then the other, lots of wedges, pull, pound, pull, cut, pound and then snap! The steel cable broke, tree came back on rope streach onto the wedges. I was as scarred as I have ever been in my life. I had a ground man remove the neighbors from their house, we had lots of insurance. The wedges just sunk into the wood and were only usefull to not pinch my bar. The bull rope was so streached it was half of its diamiter. I dared not have the loader pull any more. After discussing options for 20 minutes I left my saw off and probed with the tip to feel how my hinge was shaped in there and low and behold I discovered small "islands" of holding wood The trunk was so big I missed in there a few times. So I cut these off, could now get the wedges in and the tree came over, then it was time for lunch.
In summary: pulling with heavy equipment makes it to tempting to over do it. I use my toyota most of the time now, or piece it out. Having PD insurance really helps with confidence as well. I run my own buissness now and cant afford it so now I am very conservative around houses. We will see how chicken I get on next weeks Douglass Fir removal.
We pull trees over when we can. I don't think there is anything unprofessional about it. I just don't like leaving a yard with excessive damage to the turf if I can avoid it. To me, that looks unprofessional. I've only had one bad experience pulling a tree over. It was an American elm, close to 110 feet tall, 5 foot diameter trunk, and infected with Dutch Elm disease, so the city had tagged it for removal. It was located in a side yard with a large vacant lot to drop it in. The only problem was that the tree still had 75% of its' leaves, and the wind was blowing hard from the wrong direction. We used a bucket truck to set a 3/4 inch line high in the tree, and hooked it to the bucket truck out in the vacant lot. The wind kept picking up, and I asked the boss if he really wanted to try this today. Yep. I suggested cutting a traditional notch due to the wind and the amount of pulling he would be doing with the truck. No way, bore cut it. He only allowed us to bore cut trunks over. I didn't feel that it was a good idea, and let him know that, but he's the boss. I bore cut, got out of the way and signalled to start pulling. The wind is blowing hard, the line is stretched to about half of its original diamater, and the tree isn't coming over. The boss guns the truck, gives the tree a big jerk, and the butt breaks free and slides off of the stump. The butt dug into the ground, the boss is backing up like a mad man, and the tree ends up laying down about 45 degrees from the way we wanted it to. No damage to anything, but big time pucker factor watching the butt slide out.
undercut
ArboristSite Operative
proper felling pulling with a truck
I read this whole thread and i am very interested in the proper way to fell while pulling a tree with a truck. Assume you have proper rope, high secure placement good grip ect. I was under the impression that you can do a gentle test pull and see what you are getting by watching the trees movement.(If you can easily move the weight with little effort, stand it up checking what you can do just giving it little tugs) Then release tension. make your notch. then do another gentle test pull to see what you are getting. then add pre tension if every thing looks ok. say pre tension is just a quarter to a third of the weight of the tree depending on your lean. Then lock and block the truck under pre tension. Then start your back cut until you see the tree start to go with your back cut opening up ever so slightly look at your hinge on both sides. square off. hammer a wedge in straight on with your fall direction. cut a little more to square off and perfect your last cutting to leave your desired hinge width .seat your wedge again. Then exit and pull.
I have to say i really want to be corrected here. this is my impression to how this procedure goes. This is a great topic i have to say i don't think anyone spelled out the exact text book procedure. Over all seems like people are saying this a common professional technique. If anyone one knows were there are safe felling height to lean charts i would like to check them out also if you could post them.. thanks
I read this whole thread and i am very interested in the proper way to fell while pulling a tree with a truck. Assume you have proper rope, high secure placement good grip ect. I was under the impression that you can do a gentle test pull and see what you are getting by watching the trees movement.(If you can easily move the weight with little effort, stand it up checking what you can do just giving it little tugs) Then release tension. make your notch. then do another gentle test pull to see what you are getting. then add pre tension if every thing looks ok. say pre tension is just a quarter to a third of the weight of the tree depending on your lean. Then lock and block the truck under pre tension. Then start your back cut until you see the tree start to go with your back cut opening up ever so slightly look at your hinge on both sides. square off. hammer a wedge in straight on with your fall direction. cut a little more to square off and perfect your last cutting to leave your desired hinge width .seat your wedge again. Then exit and pull.
I have to say i really want to be corrected here. this is my impression to how this procedure goes. This is a great topic i have to say i don't think anyone spelled out the exact text book procedure. Over all seems like people are saying this a common professional technique. If anyone one knows were there are safe felling height to lean charts i would like to check them out also if you could post them.. thanks
lees trees
ArboristSite Operative
until someone can account for all the what ifs, pulling with a truck is more of a art-form than a science.
Exactly right Lees! Too many people treat this as if it can be a textbook exercise. Every tree grows differently. I have experienced my fair share of pucker factor when an "obviously healthy" and "easy pull" becomes a rapidly moving barber chair with no clear exit path for the cutter. We do NOT pull with a vehicle unless there is no other way to drop the tree. We do sometimes use a F-350 as an anchor point, if there is no suitable tree in the right direction, for setting up a 3:1 or 4:1 for pulling by hand to set up pretension or to urge the tree to go against the lean. We never use less than a 3/4" rope when working against the lean. Our favorite is a 1 1/8" line used by power companies to pull high tension lines. We are lucky enough to sometimes get the unused remnants off of spools. Some of these "pieces of trash" have been over 200 feet long and are rated at over 30,000#. But they are not indestructible! About a year ago, we had one snap under full load. If there had been anyone in the path of the rope, it would have killed them. Instead, it hit the tailgate of the F-350, created 7 creases in the sheet metal, and the hot tip of the rope welded itself to the face of the rear bumper.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Eeeeek!
Cannon Dan
ArboristSite Lurker
tree trouble
the trouble with pulling over a tree with equipment is the introduction of many variables that make the practice dangerous. (pull line- multiple people- their communication- the machine- the rope- the block- the engine- the surface its on)Of all the trees I have seen pulled over 90% should have been addressed in another way. It seems to be the "way out" of a bad spot for some who lack experience climbing. dont get me wrong there are trees that are made safe by pulling. I spent a lot of time as a falling contractor and my family business was in the arborist industry. Many a time i have seen a guy climb 30-40' up a single stem tree just to put a line on it so he could pull it onto a street. If i am to putt my climbing gear on to go up a removal i can "chunk it down" by the time he ties the pull line, had got back to the ground, ran the rope, hooked up the machine, stopped the traffic, fell the tree, cleaned off the road, etc. Remember blocking it down in chunks is 100%. there is no way to hit a line or house thats 20' away if you take it down in 6' chunks.
I use to train guys to take the Utility course and I always use the same example. Lets assume your along a 240KV line and clearing the trees from the right away. you can free fall them. put a line on and pull them over. or climb and piece them down. "can you fall the tree?" i would say on something relatively easy no doubt they would say yes. I would ask "how sure are you" every time they would say 99%. My response was always the same. So at 99% it will fall safely along the power line? "We do this for a living. You will do 100 trees by Wednesday. Does that mean Wednesday that 1% will catch up with you and you will hit the line killing you?"
Dramatic, but just a thought to ponder.
My point after all this rambling is work safely. There is enough danger in our business to go around. use whatever method has the least variables to control. and if you have to pull it over make sure that driver is well schooled because he can blow it just as easy as the cutter.
cheers, D
the trouble with pulling over a tree with equipment is the introduction of many variables that make the practice dangerous. (pull line- multiple people- their communication- the machine- the rope- the block- the engine- the surface its on)Of all the trees I have seen pulled over 90% should have been addressed in another way. It seems to be the "way out" of a bad spot for some who lack experience climbing. dont get me wrong there are trees that are made safe by pulling. I spent a lot of time as a falling contractor and my family business was in the arborist industry. Many a time i have seen a guy climb 30-40' up a single stem tree just to put a line on it so he could pull it onto a street. If i am to putt my climbing gear on to go up a removal i can "chunk it down" by the time he ties the pull line, had got back to the ground, ran the rope, hooked up the machine, stopped the traffic, fell the tree, cleaned off the road, etc. Remember blocking it down in chunks is 100%. there is no way to hit a line or house thats 20' away if you take it down in 6' chunks.
I use to train guys to take the Utility course and I always use the same example. Lets assume your along a 240KV line and clearing the trees from the right away. you can free fall them. put a line on and pull them over. or climb and piece them down. "can you fall the tree?" i would say on something relatively easy no doubt they would say yes. I would ask "how sure are you" every time they would say 99%. My response was always the same. So at 99% it will fall safely along the power line? "We do this for a living. You will do 100 trees by Wednesday. Does that mean Wednesday that 1% will catch up with you and you will hit the line killing you?"
Dramatic, but just a thought to ponder.
My point after all this rambling is work safely. There is enough danger in our business to go around. use whatever method has the least variables to control. and if you have to pull it over make sure that driver is well schooled because he can blow it just as easy as the cutter.
cheers, D
cwelvy
ArboristSite Lurker
Use it often. Always triangulated off a tree with cambium saver 99% right on the cone I place for spectators and often for leaner's. But, I do climb and set the rope 3/4 way up tree and take off weight if over house and propane tanks!!
