Friction saver - rings in nylon strap?

[ATH]

Is there any reason that this is a bad idea for a friction saver?

I took the rings off of my old friction saver because I damaged the cord - so I know they are good enough. The nylon loop runner is a standard one from Sherrill and rated for 4000# so I know that is fine. Especially since I used rings I already had, this would give me a second friction saver for an $8 nylon loop.

I thought I might put a stitch to hold the loop together - though I am a little hesitant to do that because I don't know if that will weaken the loop runner. I doubt it would, but nor do I have the ability to test it.

Am I out of ANSI Z133 standards if I do this?

Thanks!

 

[Raymond]

Hell it'll be alright. Use it and just keep an eye on it.
But yeah I don't see a problem with it.

 

[rbtree]

You might want to tape the webbing to assure that the girth hitch doesn't open, allowing a ring to fall off.

I have Nick splice adjustable f/s's, and use two biners, plus a pulley. Can be installed easily and with good friction reduction. more likely to hang up though.

 

[Bearcreek]

I made one just like that. Seems to work fine. Anyone have an opinion on making one like this with nylon webbing tied to the rings with a water knot instead of girth hitched? I haven't tried it yet but it seems like it would be nice cause you wouldn't have to worry about the girth hitches coming off the rings.

 

[ATH]

I was thinking that stitching would take care of securing the girth hitch.

Bearcreek, I did think about using stardard webbing (instead of a loop), so I could make it longer - but I am not comfortable that my sewing can make it strong enough and I thought the knots would make it a little too bulky.

 

[Ghillie]

I was thinking that stitching would take care of securing the girth hitch.

Bearcreek, I did think about using stardard webbing (instead of a loop), so I could make it longer - but I am not comfortable that my sewing can make it strong enough and I thought the knots would make it a little too bulky.

Where are you thinking of stitching the webbing?

I am trying to think of where I would stitch that would not put the stitch under load at some point. Maybe stitch permanent eyes into the webbing that are just big enough for the small ring to pass through them so you can girth the big ring by passing the webbing through itself and the the small ring by passing the ring through the loop.

Stitch it without the rings in place and the webbing laying flat on itself.

What do you think?

 

[Ghillie]

Do you work with anybody that can splice?

I've heard that rope friction savers don't hang up as easy as webbing ones.

 

[ATH]

My original plan was to splice the rings onto 3 strand eyes (that is all I have spliced...). Then I figured this would be faster, more flexible, and possibly easier to use - so here I am. It would be nice to splice the rings onto 16 strand. Maybe I should just learn - obviously it wouldn't be a wasted skill!

As for the stitching question:

**With this make-up I'd run a zig-zag stitch down each edge all the way to the girth hitch - and probably a little into the girth hitch. This will not put the stitching under load - but my concern is whether the stitching weakends the tested strength of the nylon loop.
**To make from "scratch": What I was thinking was that I'd just double over a piece of tubular webbing with a ring at each end, then run a zig-zag stitch up and down both edges. I would probably overlap the ends so it would be like a loop runner that has the rings already in the loop - then the stitching along the length of each edge to hold the rings at the "ends". Obviously, this would work because it is the same thing as the loop I can buy with the addition of rings in it - but my stitching methods will not have been tested many times over to have met very strict standards. I am pretty sure it would be safe...but I try to move from "pretty sure" to "tested by ANSI standards" as often as possible!

 

[Ghillie]

My original plan was to splice the rings onto 3 strand eyes (that is all I have spliced...). Then I figured this would be faster, more flexible, and possibly easier to use - so here I am. It would be nice to splice the rings onto 16 strand. Maybe I should just learn - obviously it wouldn't be a wasted skill!

As for the stitching question:

**With this make-up I'd run a zig-zag stitch down each edge all the way to the girth hitch - and probably a little into the girth hitch. This will not put the stitching under load - but my concern is whether the stitching weakends the tested strength of the nylon loop.
**To make from "scratch": What I was thinking was that I'd just double over a piece of tubular webbing with a ring at each end, then run a zig-zag stitch up and down both edges. I would probably overlap the ends so it would be like a loop runner that has the rings already in the loop - then the stitching along the length of each edge to hold the rings at the "ends". Obviously, this would work because it is the same thing as the loop I can buy with the addition of rings in it - but my stitching methods will not have been tested many times over to have met very strict standards. I am pretty sure it would be safe...but I try to move from "pretty sure" to "tested by ANSI standards" as often as possible!

I like your idea better than mine (the girth hitch setup) but I wish I knew more about stitching webbing for loading like that. I know what you mean about "pretty sure".

Samson's "eye and eye tail" splice is not too bad to do. But:

These instructions are intended for use with Samson’s Tenex, Tenex-Tec (2 end per carrier Tenex), IceTail, or Tech-12 only

It is A LOT easier splice than the 16 strand but the 16 strand eye is a nice one to know too.

If you like the one you make, Wesspur has aluminum rings for around $4.25 each.

 

[Ghillie]

If you are going to learn 16 strand splicing, don't buy a fid, make your own.

The only thing I would reccomend buying is a pick set from Menards, they have rounded ends and work great for extracting the core and pulling strands.

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

One observation would be the load rating on your stap from Sherrill. I would be looking for a rating of at minimum 5000 lbs. to 6500 lbs. . The life you save may be your own.

 

[treemandan]

One observation would be the load rating on your stap from Sherrill. I would be looking for a rating of at minimum 5000 lbs. to 6500 lbs. . The life you save may be your own.

The wwl is 1200 on these straps.

 

[Raymond]

I bought one like 4 years ago from Sherrill but I've never used it.
Was always afraid it would not come down when I was done.
I figure the first time I used them and it got stuck would be the last.

So do these come down alright and not get hung up?
I think I'll dig mine out of the bottom of the box and give it a try soon.

 

[Ghillie]

I bought one like 4 years ago from Sherrill but I've never used it.
Was always afraid it would not come down when I was done.
I figure the first time I used them and it got stuck would be the last.

So do these come down alright and not get hung up?
I think I'll dig mine out of the bottom of the box and give it a try soon.

You just got to pick the crotch you put your gear into. Just like life, the tighter the crotch, the more work it is......

The only problem I have had was when I used a mini-biner to retrieve it and the biner locked onto the big ring instead of sliding through. Had to set another line the next day and get my first line out.

Now I use screw links in my spliced eyes for retrieval. I have also seen people use a washer on a short cord for retrieval.

 

[Raymond]

You just got to pick the crotch you put your gear into. Just like life, the tighter the crotch, the more work it is......

The only problem I have had was when I used a mini-biner to retrieve it and the biner locked onto the big ring instead of sliding through. Had to set another line the next day and get my first line out.

Now I use screw links in my spliced eyes for retrieval. I have also seen people use a washer on a short cord for retrieval.

I hear ya big guy. I think I'll give it a try.

 

[outofmytree]

Is there any reason that this is a bad idea for a friction saver?

I took the rings off of my old friction saver because I damaged the cord - so I know they are good enough. The nylon loop runner is a standard one from Sherrill and rated for 4000# so I know that is fine. Especially since I used rings I already had, this would give me a second friction saver for an $8 nylon loop.

I thought I might put a stitch to hold the loop together - though I am a little hesitant to do that because I don't know if that will weaken the loop runner. I doubt it would, but nor do I have the ability to test it.

Am I out of ANSI Z133 standards if I do this?

Thanks!

Dunno about ANSI but I know that in Aus if you are not the manufacturer or licensed repair agent any modification of rigging equipment is deemed unsafe to use. As such it cannot be used for commercial climbing nor will it be permitted to be used in ISAAC tree climbing comp's.

Now that said, your idea seems sound to me and I know many climbers who have cut the rings off cambium savers (friction savers to you) in order to hang a maillon and pulley instead.

Quick couple of questions.

Are the rings steel or alloy?

How did the original strap come to be damaged?

 

[Ghillie]

Dunno about ANSI but I know that in Aus if you are not the manufacturer or licensed repair agent any modification of rigging equipment is deemed unsafe to use. As such it cannot be used for commercial climbing nor will it be permitted to be used in ISAAC tree climbing comp's.

Now that said, your idea seems sound to me and I know many climbers who have cut the rings off cambium savers (friction savers to you) in order to hang a maillon and pulley instead.

Quick couple of questions.

Are the rings steel or alloy?

How did the original strap come to be damaged?

How does rope splicing come under that scrutiny? Or does it?

 

[outofmytree]

How does rope splicing come under that scrutiny? Or does it?

Great question. I will read up and let you know.

I do know that the problems lie in minute details. I had a saddler stitch a saw hook onto my Buckingham harness. I was referred to this saddler by the Buckingham distributor. The saddle was declared unfit for the tree climbing comp because of the modification. The distributor is on the rules commitee for the tcc. What the????

Ah well, I needed a good excuse to buy another harness anyway.....

 

[murphy4trees]

Not recommended

I would not use that loopie for a friction saver.

It's not rates for life support.... Doesn't mean its not safe... its just not extra safe... I use them for redirects occasionally, thinking my life is not dependent on this sling. They melt FAST... that shouldn;t be much of a problem either if used properly and the rigging is set up right, but why take a chance when there are so many other options...

SO the real problem with that is set up is practicality, not so much safety.. Having a stiff friction saver will tend to keep the ring from getting caught in tight crotches...

Big jon gave me one of his spliced jobs made from safety blue a few years ago. I don't use it very often, and he did... always check the crotch by pulling it out beforehand to make sure it doesn't get stuck... That loopie you plan on using will cause the ring to get stuck in a lot more crotches, reducing your options which will slow you down a lot over time..

 

[ATH]

Thanks for all of the replies guys.

Here are some answers to questions/issues raised:

*Ghillie: I already have a set of fids. Are you saying you can substitute something cheaper or that the Menards pick works better?

*Treemandan: you made me go back and look...the WLL depends on how the strap is used. On p. 59 of the new catalog it looks like the WLL is only 960lbs at the girths. I guess that is the final answer. Not good.

*Raymond: I got it stuck once and had to throw a new line and reclimb to get it down. I should always send up the throw line with it. I do if it is questionable. If things don't go right getting it down, I can start over and try it again - or worst case, put the climbing line back in and climb up to it, re-tie without it and rapp down.

*outofmytree: As this is, I have not altered anything - just put 2 approved components together. Obviously stitching it would be an alteration... To your other questions: Steel rings. I damaged the original strap with my handsaw - just glazed it. I still used it for a while as there was just some fringed webbing, but every time I used it, I thought better about it and finally broke down (wised up!) and bought a new one. This idea was just trying to salvage something.

*murphy: several good points there all to be taken into advisement.

Bottomline goes back to the correction treemandan brought up: The strap is NOT adequate for life support. Oh well, it was a good idea for a day or 2 that never got used.

So what do I do with the steel rings now? Guess I'll splice some Arbormaster if nothing else comes up.