Heating options for new home construction

[BlueRidgeMark]

I like my house warm and toasty. I like heat when we have power outages.

Say, Crappie (hey, YOU picked the username! ), if it's forced air, how do you have heat with the power out?

I like what I see about Yukons, mind you, so I'm not just busting your chops. I'm just trying to look at all the angles.


<sigh> It's all theoretical for me at this point, though. Looks like I'm stuck where I am for as far as I can see.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Geothermal with in floor heat

Just a nit to pick here: It's not really geothermal. That term is being badly abused in the heating industry.

TRUE geothermal heat is from a volcanic source, where it's possible to tap into volcanically heated groundwater for some SERIOUS heating and even energy production.

What we're talking about for homes is properly called ground-based heat exchange.

I know, I'm fighting a losing battle here. The word's been corrupted (through ignorance or marketing hype) and there's not much hope of recovering it.

Like "decimated". It just means to reduce by one tenth. That's all.

 

[logbutcher]

Just a nit to pick here: It's not really geothermal. That term is being badly abused in the heating industry.

TRUE geothermal heat is from a volcanic source, where it's possible to tap into volcanically heated groundwater for some SERIOUS heating and even energy production.

What we're talking about for homes is properly called ground-based heat exchange.

I know, I'm fighting a losing battle here. The word's been corrupted (through ignorance or marketing hype) and there's not much hope of recovering it.

Like "decimated". It just means to reduce by one tenth. That's all.

While correct Mark, you are dangerously in the Semantic Nazi arena.
BTW: only Iceland has universal Geothermal heat (and power). Now there.

 

[Hddnis]

You can have true geothermal anywhere if you drill deep enough. :biggrinbounce2:

I'm really curious about the new cement OWB. The thread about those has my interest up and I plan to investigate further this winter.



Mr. HE

 

[WetBehindtheEar]

We converted to "Geothermal"

We converted this past year to "Geothermal" (VERY good point, Mark). It's essentially a large refrigeration unit that runs the refrigreant compression/expansion cycle forward for summer cooling and reversed for winter heating. It's a matter of a reversing valve.

Five ton unit, five looped wells drilled to 180'. We live in an area surrounded by lakes so they hit the water table 20' down which translates to HUGE heat transfer efficiencies.

Now, we haven't had a winter of heating yet, but our gas bills were ~$400 per month from November through March.

With the system running in summer mode, it blew VERY cold air and kept the place @ 78F all the time which was super comfortable.

The cost was all electrical (mostly for running the compressor, some for running the ground loop) and ran ~$145 for the months of June, July, & Aug. Previous year costs were about $120 per month for the cooling season.

We have radiant floor heating in the first floor and the refinished basement & forced air for the first, second, & finished attic.

It's going to take some 'tweaking' with the various thermostats and the Clydesdale to keep the forced air from running... Hopefully, we'll just have the radiant heat going most of the time & have the forced air kick in when I'm not around to stoke the insert.

Hopefully, the cost of heating will be in the $140 - $150 range or my wife & I are going to feel like a couple of fools for spending so much $$ on converting our old HVAC to this new one.

Another caveat: If the Democrat's Cap & Trade legislation goes through, our electric bill is going to go through the roof... Most power generated in the North-Central US is done with Coal... evil coal...

I have half-a-mind to send more good money after bad here and get a 50KW photo-voltaic system put on the roof and then tell the power company to come and take their meters off my building.

 

[logbutcher]

We converted this past year to "Geothermal" (VERY good point, Mark). It's essentially a large refrigeration unit that runs the refrigreant compression/expansion cycle forward for summer cooling and reversed for winter heating. It's a matter of a reversing valve.

Five ton unit, five looped wells drilled to 180'. We live in an area surrounded by lakes so they hit the water table 20' down which translates to HUGE heat transfer efficiencies.

Now, we haven't had a winter of heating yet, but our gas bills were ~$400 per month from November through March.

With the system running in summer mode, it blew VERY cold air and kept the place @ 78F all the time which was super comfortable.

The cost was all electrical (mostly for running the compressor, some for running the ground loop) and ran ~$145 for the months of June, July, & Aug. Previous year costs were about $120 per month for the cooling season.

We have radiant floor heating in the first floor and the refinished basement & forced air for the first, second, & finished attic.

It's going to take some 'tweaking' with the various thermostats and the Clydesdale to keep the forced air from running... Hopefully, we'll just have the radiant heat going most of the time & have the forced air kick in when I'm not around to stoke the insert.

Hopefully, the cost of heating will be in the $140 - $150 range or my wife & I are going to feel like a couple of fools for spending so much $$ on converting our old HVAC to this new one.

Another caveat: If the Democrat's Cap & Trade legislation goes through, our electric bill is going to go through the roof... Most power generated in the North-Central US is done with Coal... evil coal...

I have half-a-mind to send more good money after bad here and get a 50KW photo-voltaic system put on the roof and then tell the power company to come and take their meters off my building.

Any energy system needs cost and amorization calculations. Geothermal here is big big $$$$. Yes, you got water 20'. Net cost ? Years to get a payback ?

Our simple wood stoves plus installation gear ( SS flues, hearth pad, etc...) for our spaces and climate costed out to payback in less than 3 years comparing to oil or propane for an equivalent space. No cooling necessary here.

 

[applefarmer]

The rule of thumb I was told, cost to OPERATE geo thermal for heat is equal to $2.00 gas with a 95% effecient furnace. That was at $.10kw/hour. The payback/no payback changes as the price of gas goes up or down, figured with NO repairs. Add in a couple problems and the effective life of the compressor ect. it doesn't cash flow well with todays gas prices. Every situation is different, for me an owb made the most sence. I have no close neigbors, wood for free, and a place to store wood for 3 years ahead. If easy access to large wood is a problem look at a gassier with water storage. Either way strongly consider in floor heat in the basement, hard floor surfaces. The temperature swings of a forced air wood furnace is my biggest complaint in that respect. Good luck, have fun!

 

[mtfallsmikey]

The rule of thumb I was told, cost to OPERATE geo thermal for heat is equal to $2.00 gas with a 95% effecient furnace. That was at $.10kw/hour. The payback/no payback changes as the price of gas goes up or down, figured with NO repairs. Add in a couple problems and the effective life of the compressor ect. it doesn't cash flow well with todays gas prices. Every situation is different, for me an owb made the most sence. I have no close neigbors, wood for free, and a place to store wood for 3 years ahead. If easy access to large wood is a problem look at a gassier with water storage. Either way strongly consider in floor heat in the basement, hard floor surfaces. The temperature swings of a forced air wood furnace is my biggest complaint in that respect. Good luck, have fun!

Very true. and design of a geothermal system is critical. Repairs can eat you up, negating any cost savings.

 

[WetBehindtheEar]

Net cost was $35k +/- but that included the radiant floor heating and all new ductwork for the forced air. The drilling was easy - they made 60' an hour. To put in an equivalent-sized boiler/wood burner with all of the associated pex & ductwork would have been on the order of $22-25k. With the 30% tax credit, it became a wash so we went with something that would reduce our gas consumption.

I was concerned with the maintenance costs so I called a buddy of mine who seems to get this stuff right and he went with a Geo unit. He hasn't had a problem in the last 7 years...The compressor is warranted for 10 years and the ground loops have a 50 year guarantee. I am surprised at the number of comments on repair costs. The costs are about the same as fixing any air conditioning unit and the warranty is pretty substantial. The system is essentially a large refidgerator with a grundfoss pump for the ground loop and four Taco pumps for the radiant floor heating. Where are the repair costs? Yes, if the compressor goes out, we've got issues but it's not going to cost any more than getting a new air conditioning compressor.

Our COE (coefficient of efficiency?) is supposedly 5. For every $1 energy you put into this geo unit, you get an equivalent of $5 natural gas units...

Again, we'll see how it really shakes out.

We certainly put our flag in the sand on this one. We're not moving until the kids are out of the house (15+ years).

Now if I can convince my (really nice) neighbors to stop putting their kids' toys on the side of my garage and stop letting them call me by my first name... life will be beautiful. Maybe I'll just run the crap over with my lawn mower like my dad used to. :greenchainsaw:

 

[Marc]

Our COE (coefficient of efficiency?) is supposedly 5. For every $1 energy you put into this geo unit, you get an equivalent of $5 natural gas units...

Usually heat pumps ratings are called coefficient of performance because it measures the heat moved against the work input. Efficiency is a rating typically reserved for a process of energy conversion (i.e. electrical to heat, chemical to heat, chemical to mechanical, etc.).


And BlueRidgeMark, as much as I hate to disagree with you- the term "geothermal" may traditionally be used to refer to harvesting the Earth's heat from a ground reservoir hotter than the living space, in places like Iceland, but a ground source heat pump is still technically a geothermal source, since "geo thermal" just means "ground heat." People using ground source heat pumps still get their heat from the ground, it's just that a work energy input is needed because the heat is being moved from a cooler reservoir to a warmer one (the heated spaces in the house). The heat still comes from the ground.

 

[Jon E]

I designed my current house seven years ago with a lot of thought given to heating and cooling and believed at the time that I got it right. We built a 2800 sf timber frame with SIPs on the outer skin, and a full finished ICF basement. The house is like a giant walk-in cooler - as long as the windows stay shut, the house holds heat (or cold) very well. I put in a dual-fuel Central Boiler OWB, with propane backup, so there's technically no source of heat within my house. I also designed the structure for a fireplace, but due to the cost of the masonry (wasn't in the budget) we simply skipped it, although it wouldn't be hard to put it in. I burn wood year round and only use the propane once in a rare while to start the wood, and for cooking. We just put 150 gallons of propane in the tank and I expect that to last 2 years. The heat distribution inside the house is radiant tubing in my concrete basement slab, and radiant staple-up tubing under the tile floors in the second-floor bathrooms. We have been living here for three years come December, and while it may get a little chilly in deep winter, we have never completed the staple up tubing under the main floor of our house. I plan to do so this winter.

I had designed this place with the intent that we would live here pretty much forever, and didn't care about resale or trying to explain to new owners about some of the odd characteristics of the house (it's not completely 'normal' in the sense that a house should be...). Now I am looking at a completely unexpected and somewhat unwelcome career change, and we might have to sell. For that reason - I wish I had done something differently. I have much more of a push to finish the staple-up heating, and probably should have put in at least a chimney and a woodstove.

So if I have to start over, I would do the following:

• still would go with the outdoor wood boiler, but one of the high efficiency gasifier models
• if regulations are prohibitive, go with an indoor gasifier.
• put in a small woodstove, both for aesthetics and space heat
• put in a high-efficiency wall-mount propane boiler in the basement
• continue to use radiant heat tubing in the basement slab, but put it on top of the subfloor in the rest of the house
• use more tile floors
• install solar panels to power as much of the system as possible - the OWB doesn't run when there's no power

I suppose with wide open spaces (like the midwest) I would consider ground-loop heat pump options, with a solar panel system or wind turbine to provide electricity for the heat pump. I'd still want something as a backup, though it would depend on the circumstances.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Say, Crappie (hey, YOU picked the username! ), if it's forced air, how do you have heat with the power out?

I like what I see about Yukons, mind you, so I'm not just busting your chops. I'm just trying to look at all the angles.


<sigh> It's all theoretical for me at this point, though. Looks like I'm stuck where I am for as far as I can see.

Up here in north cetral Mn. we pronounce crappie as crawpee however you go down south and you'll get crap'ee. Makes no never mind to me how you say it.

As long as the unit is below grade or the ducting comes off of the top of a furnace you can use gravity to take heat throughout the home.
There are a few issue here. If a firebox is cheap/thin it will not last or hold up. We have been U.L. listed to operate that way.Those wood burners that are not warranted to operate while no power is present should send you a message that it is a cheaply built firebox.
They need a blower to cool the box or they will warp and split....hence the warranty is void if operated while under a power outtage.
The other issue is that larger or oversized heat runs are prefered if you live in an area that expierences power outtages frequently.

Our customers on the east coast see many power losses through ice storms and brown or black outs. Our furnaces keep their homes warm and toasty for weeks at a time when they have these no power situations.

If you want to talk about efficient...no one is talking heat loss running long pipes carrying the hot water.
Even heat...with a Yukon the heat is always there at some level depending on how often the stat is calling for heat. Just because the stat is satisfied the heat still triggers the fan & limit switch and even after the heat is cycled out and may be cooler it is still gravitating up the ducting so you don't get the cold rushes of air like from a conventional furnace working on continueity of operation. Just because a stat is satisfied the Yukon's thermal mass design is still emitting heats....only slower....you have full control.

They use half the wood a OWB uses...or most other older wood furnaces or stoves.I say this because that's what my customers say after replacing their old Long Wood,Dual Matic Olsen,NewMac or every other furnace that they have replaced.
Really.....if you are making all of the btu's in a piece of wood and then exchanging all of the btu's into your ducting that physics says you can only running a 300-400 degree stack or flue gas temp ...there are no more btu's available. So the rest is going into the home.

Now add in the fact the the Eagles can be the central air mover with 7 day programmable stats on the liquid fuel and A/C with night time set back functions ...how could it get any better.
You get to have perfect air quality with a humidifier and a HEPA system killing air borne pathogens.
Without ducting you have no real ability to have any air quality control and you can do this for a cost that is cheaper than an OWB or heat pump.

Lastly this investment will pay for itself fairly quickly and since our furnaces have a proven track record it is safe to say that they will last up to or over 30 years.Then they can be rebuilt in liew of replacing with a new furnace.
Who else has that sort of reputation??????

You could start out with a wood/oil furnace and switch to gas.No one has that option....at least not with the same furnace.
None are UL listed...code says that they must be tested and listed. Listed means that the testing co. comes and rechecks the build to ensure they are still made like when they were 1st tested and listed. We go through this process ever 3 months and it's not cheap!

I hear folks talking about some very grand ideas ,but in the end the investment never pays....or you have many issues that are costly.
Heating your home and or cooling it can be done several ways.
I honestly believe that a Yukon furnace is a better choice.

 

[rackmup]

Up here in north cetral Mn. we pronounce crappie as crawpee however you go down south and you'll get crap'ee. Makes no never mind to me how you say it.

As long as the unit is below grade or the ducting comes off of the top of a furnace you can use gravity to take heat throughout the home.
There are a few issue here. If a firebox is cheap/thin it will not last or hold up. We have been U.L. listed to operate that way.Those wood burners that are not warranted to operate while no power is present should send you a message that it is a cheaply built firebox.
They need a blower to cool the box or they will warp and split....hence the warranty is void if operated while under a power outtage.
The other issue is that larger or oversized heat runs are prefered if you live in an area that expierences power outtages frequently.

Our customers on the east coast see many power losses through ice storms and brown or black outs. Our furnaces keep their homes warm and toasty for weeks at a time when they have these no power situations.

If you want to talk about efficient...no one is talking heat loss running long pipes carrying the hot water.
Even heat...with a Yukon the heat is always there at some level depending on how often the stat is calling for heat. Just because the stat is satisfied the heat still triggers the fan & limit switch and even after the heat is cycled out and may be cooler it is still gravitating up the ducting so you don't get the cold rushes of air like from a conventional furnace working on continueity of operation. Just because a stat is satisfied the Yukon's thermal mass design is still emitting heats....only slower....you have full control.

They use half the wood a OWB uses...or most other older wood furnaces or stoves.I say this because that's what my customers say after replacing their old Long Wood,Dual Matic Olsen,NewMac or every other furnace that they have replaced.
Really.....if you are making all of the btu's in a piece of wood and then exchanging all of the btu's into your ducting that physics says you can only running a 300-400 degree stack or flue gas temp ...there are no more btu's available. So the rest is going into the home.

Now add in the fact the the Eagles can be the central air mover with 7 day programmable stats on the liquid fuel and A/C with night time set back functions ...how could it get any better.
You get to have perfect air quality with a humidifier and a HEPA system killing air borne pathogens.
Without ducting you have no real ability to have any air quality control and you can do this for a cost that is cheaper than an OWB or heat pump.

Lastly this investment will pay for itself fairly quickly and since our furnaces have a proven track record it is safe to say that they will last up to or over 30 years.Then they can be rebuilt in liew of replacing with a new furnace.
Who else has that sort of reputation??????

You could start out with a wood/oil furnace and switch to gas.No one has that option....at least not with the same furnace.
None are UL listed...code says that they must be tested and listed. Listed means that the testing co. comes and rechecks the build to ensure they are still made like when they were 1st tested and listed. We go through this process ever 3 months and it's not cheap!

I hear folks talking about some very grand ideas ,but in the end the investment never pays....or you have many issues that are costly.
Heating your home and or cooling it can be done several ways.
I honestly believe that a Yukon furnace is a better choice.

Hey Crappie, your making feel bad about the new Central boiler 6048 I just bought. I now wish I would have heard about the Yukon before this year...

 

[Cambium]

Havent read through all the posts but if you're building from scratch why not keep in simple? Build 3 fireplaces. One in basement, on on 1st floor and one on second floor. Install wood inserts. Mission accomplished. House will be warm enough.

And dont build the chimneys one on top of another, stagger them. 1st floor on left side of house, Basement in middle, 2nd floor on right side. This way the heat from lower levels will rise and keep upper levels warm too.

 

[BPS. LLC]

Havent read through all the posts but if you're building from scratch why not keep in simple? Build 3 fireplaces. One in basement, on on 1st floor and one on second floor. Install wood inserts. Mission accomplished. House will be warm enough.

And dont build the chimneys one on top of another, stagger them. 1st floor on left side of house, Basement in middle, 2nd floor on right side. This way the heat from lower levels will rise and keep upper levels warm too.

I love burning wood, but not enough to drag wood onto 3 floors and keep 3 fires going.

 

[BPS. LLC]

Up here in north cetral Mn. we pronounce crappie as crawpee however you go down south and you'll get crap'ee. Makes no never mind to me how you say it.

As long as the unit is below grade or the ducting comes off of the top of a furnace you can use gravity to take heat throughout the home.
There are a few issue here. If a firebox is cheap/thin it will not last or hold up. We have been U.L. listed to operate that way.Those wood burners that are not warranted to operate while no power is present should send you a message that it is a cheaply built firebox.
They need a blower to cool the box or they will warp and split....hence the warranty is void if operated while under a power outtage.
The other issue is that larger or oversized heat runs are prefered if you live in an area that expierences power outtages frequently.

Our customers on the east coast see many power losses through ice storms and brown or black outs. Our furnaces keep their homes warm and toasty for weeks at a time when they have these no power situations.

If you want to talk about efficient...no one is talking heat loss running long pipes carrying the hot water.
Even heat...with a Yukon the heat is always there at some level depending on how often the stat is calling for heat. Just because the stat is satisfied the heat still triggers the fan & limit switch and even after the heat is cycled out and may be cooler it is still gravitating up the ducting so you don't get the cold rushes of air like from a conventional furnace working on continueity of operation. Just because a stat is satisfied the Yukon's thermal mass design is still emitting heats....only slower....you have full control.

They use half the wood a OWB uses...or most other older wood furnaces or stoves.I say this because that's what my customers say after replacing their old Long Wood,Dual Matic Olsen,NewMac or every other furnace that they have replaced.
Really.....if you are making all of the btu's in a piece of wood and then exchanging all of the btu's into your ducting that physics says you can only running a 300-400 degree stack or flue gas temp ...there are no more btu's available. So the rest is going into the home.

Now add in the fact the the Eagles can be the central air mover with 7 day programmable stats on the liquid fuel and A/C with night time set back functions ...how could it get any better.
You get to have perfect air quality with a humidifier and a HEPA system killing air borne pathogens.
Without ducting you have no real ability to have any air quality control and you can do this for a cost that is cheaper than an OWB or heat pump.

Lastly this investment will pay for itself fairly quickly and since our furnaces have a proven track record it is safe to say that they will last up to or over 30 years.Then they can be rebuilt in liew of replacing with a new furnace.
Who else has that sort of reputation??????

You could start out with a wood/oil furnace and switch to gas.No one has that option....at least not with the same furnace.
None are UL listed...code says that they must be tested and listed. Listed means that the testing co. comes and rechecks the build to ensure they are still made like when they were 1st tested and listed. We go through this process ever 3 months and it's not cheap!

I hear folks talking about some very grand ideas ,but in the end the investment never pays....or you have many issues that are costly.
Heating your home and or cooling it can be done several ways.
I honestly believe that a Yukon furnace is a better choice.

It looks like I can heat my hot water with your unit also. I think I'm sold!

 

[mhyme71]

Grew up with electric heat never had to cut wood for anything other than bonfires and clearing paths. I knew i would want wood heat for my house when we built last year. got the first time home buyers tax credit in ohio and bought a central boiler classic owb. man i am totally in love with it. i easily get 10 to 12 hours out of it unless it is -0 f outside then 8-9 hrs. i also heat my water with it when im burning ( i actually shut off the breaker to my water heater). and the best part is even though i grew up in the woods i absolutely love to get out the saw and tractor and cut wood. I could go at it all day if the wife didn't get her way. But im 28 and healthy. I burnt from december to april and used about 5 cords of wood. I wish the door on the boiler opened the other way because the plumbing and electric service is on the right side as you face it and i put a notch in my pad to make changes if i need to. well that leaves the other side of the pad where i stack my wood but the damn door opens to that side and i have to walk around the 2 ft door to get to my wood. I like to keep things simple and this thing certainly is simple to operate and easy to maintain. I empty the ashes out every 2 months and keep the home fires burnin baby. just remember the warmer the house the less she's likely to wear in it!!

 

[REDnekburner]

seen a gasifyer once-all electronic gizmos and switches and whatnot = not worth a damn...get yourself a good OWB and be done with it.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Yes you can heat your domestic water in the Hot Rod. It takes well water from 54-56 degrees up to around 130 degrees at 18 gallons per hour.

Hey Redneck...I made out with a smelly girl when I was in my teens...I never gave up on the women....knew that not all gals were like that. Neither are all furnaces that utilize gasification. In fact we have been doing this for over 3 decades.To assume all are the same is just ridiculous.
I know your new here ,but you'll find if you spout whatever it is that comes rolling off of the top of your head you'll be asked to prove yourself from time to time. So show me where our furances fail like what you've claimed...further thought,belay that request...

 

[REDnekburner]

Yes you can heat your domestic water in the Hot Rod. It takes well water from 54-56 degrees up to around 130 degrees at 18 gallons per hour.

Hey Redneck...I made out with a smelly fat girl when I was in my teens...I never gave up on the women....knew that not all gals were like that.LOL

I like it here but some of you boys aint wrapped too tight!