Professionals?

[TreeClimber57]

It is funny that someone so keen on formal training and regulation isn't even yet tcia accredited yet.

Unfortunately TCIA acreditation is a nice to have.. good stuff (but not mandatory legally).. but formal training helps with insurance and in some cases is a requirement/mandatory (at least here) for workers comp, etc.

 

[ropensaddle]

Hee hee! you so funny! What got your undies in such a bunch?




I have invested a lot of time and money into putting my knowledge base together




then ignore me :dunno:




So you just took from them and never gave anything back, or were you working for them and learning OJT? I assume so, since you are a young climber. I might not have anything to offer you, since you work for someone else. Maybe I could in a few years when you break off and start your own biz. When I am working with enthusiastic young climbers, it is usually the boss who calls me in to work with them to improve their productivity.



Ask it in the forum if you want free advice, if I any of us want to answer then we will. Why are you such a cheapskate as to ask someone to coach/mentor you for the love of it?

Why should anyone answer questions from all and sundry that come out of the blue? Why should the NOT be something for me out of the deal?

If someone calls me, during dinner or while I am watching TV with my wife and dogs, to ask about a problem they have with a very important client; why should I not expect to act as contracting consultant vs a free knowledge base?




Why is it such a bad thing for a person who has spent decades improving a wide set of skills, experiance and knowledge, to ask for a fee to pass it on to another for-hire professional? I did not come to the conclusion that I have knowledge of value because I thought it up, but because people have told me that they have improved their operations from what I have said and written.



My ego is boosted by people saying "thank you, you helped me." I put gas in my tank and food on the table by getting money from other people. Some of my knowledge I got from other people, some through reading, some through experiance. I have spent a lot of time ordering it and making more useful. Maybe it is not useful for you, so what?



So you will take a late-night call from a home-owner who is asking for the best way to trim their trees away from the house? Is there any difference between your scenario mine? I do not understand why I should be an altruistic mentor to everyone who asks if part of my business model is consulting to other companies.

As for giving to young climbers...I do that, not as often as I used to. I do not get approached as much, and I usually want to work in my trees or a pro bono job for a little old lady. Many of them shy off at working for free for some reason.

Now, since I put forth a reasoned and and reasonable argument for my position, why don't you tell us why you should not be taken for a pathetic, snot-nosed punk who has gotten a wee bit big for his britches since he has worked under a crane a few times?

I do give you credit for not always telling us that you are Gods gift to the tree world, but I do not see where you come off being disrespectful to some one who is more knowledgeable and experienced then you. Especially since I cannot recall ever ranting about you in such a manner.

Or should I have flamed in response?

I Have not yet needed consultation but rest assured if the right client had a problem and the solution was eluding my knowledge base, I would have no problem paying. It is in no way saying, I don't know what I am doing, it sometimes is, two heads are better than one thing. I unfortunately don't have the clients I'm after yet but I know there are customers that would not even question a fee for problems in their landscape investments. We as Arborist's, are supposed to seek advice in the event something is beyond our expertise. I may someday wish to do consultation and if I spend the money ,time necessary you can bet I would expect a fee lol

 

[beowulf343]

You guys are missing the point, i'm not talking about consultations, i'm talking about a new climber asking an experienced climber for advice. If i were a newbie and were to ask you personally, rope about how to tie a blake's hitch, would you charge me? To me it sounds like jps would. But fine, jps is the second coming of jc. All hail jps!!!!

Happy now?

Btw, we're down for the day, so sitting around board out of my mind and stirring up trouble.:giggle:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It is funny that someone so keen on formal training and regulation isn't even yet tcia accredited yet. But leaving that aside, what makes jps's training formal? The fact that you paid for it?
Is he a licensed or certified teacher? Since it's so important to so many here, is he a ca or a bcma? Is any governing body outside of the couple hundred people that know him even going to recognize his training? I mean i may have to pay 140 to go to treeseer's little event, but at least that is recognized as training by the isa. How is jps's training formal in your book, and how is it going to cover your butt in a legal situation. It's like me saying, "yeah, i went to a weekend seminar put on by bubba down the road." It doesn't mean a whole lot.

Since it seems to be all about me....

I have never said that I am in favor of formal training, I do think that a professional should constantly seek out an education from many sources. I have repeatedly stated that I am self-educated up until the last few years. I am well on my way to getting a a little BS behind my name though. I am doing it part time, so i have a few more years to go.

I do not claim to have a program that will help you with any sort of accreditation, all i say is that I can help any small business with efficiency and training. My area is helping small operations with areas that they do not have time to gain the knowledge and skills that I have developed. Though a Life Member of the ISA I have regularly stated that I am disappointed with the accreditation system. Maybe TCSP and BCMA would help me market my services, but I lack the time to put a good effort into it. I do not see any use for CA in my position, because I have been able to demonstrate my knowledge to prospective clientele for well over a decade now.

I have not pursued any tradeshow events, nor have I had anything set up with a local dealer. I am not set up to show you a better climbing hitch, or sell you a different system. (though I have worked at trade shows booths for trade, it has been more then a few years since I have done that).

I can help with general and specific problems in production and operations, such as training individuals and small groups in climbing and rigging. I do that in OJT type settings, most small companies cannot afford to break for a day; so they set up a job where we can work on a moderately technical job, and the workers can see different ways of doing things and try them out. I look at how things are done and how things can be improved. Quite often it takes a person from the outside to see these things, and I have worked with many different companies. Often a small operator does the same thing for years and gets into a rut, they do not have time to find ideas to improve efficiencies. So there are more thing to offer then a better VT or identifying a girdling root.

Those are some of the apples that I can offer a small tree company that wants to improve the top line, not the stale orange juice you seem to think i am peddling. To mix a metaphor....

 

[beowulf343]

Thank you, jps. Good answer, and if i were to start my own business (heaven forbid), you would seem like a guy to call if i had problems-and i would not have a problem paying a fee for that kind of service.

 

[ropensaddle]

You guys are missing the point, i'm not talking about consultations, i'm talking about a new climber asking an experienced climber for advice. If i were a newbie and were to ask you personally, rope about how to tie a blake's hitch, would you charge me? To me it sounds like jps would. But fine, jps is the second coming of jc. All hail jps!!!!

Happy now?

Btw, we're down for the day, so sitting around board out of my mind and stirring up trouble.:giggle:

I don't think he would charge for something so basic. However I always wonder about teaching something that could allow injury if not in a hands on relationship. Best advice is go to work with someone who is a pro and learn all you can.

 

[beowulf343]

I don't think he would charge for something so basic. However I always wonder about teaching something that could allow injury if not in a hands on relationship. Best advice is go to work with someone who is a pro and learn all you can.

You want a hands on relationship with me rope? Won't jeff get jealous?

I look at it this way, i would feel better teaching someone how to tie a blakes than have that guy try to pick it up off the internet. If he's determined to do it, he's going to find the information somewhere from somebody.

 

[ropensaddle]

You want a hands on relationship with me rope? Won't jeff get jealous?

I look at it this way, i would feel better teaching someone how to tie a blakes than have that guy try to pick it up off the internet. If he's determined to do it, he's going to find the information somewhere from somebody.

Well buddy, we just won't tell Jeffy I feel we have way too many half azzed tree men to assist in more. I feel training them the whole picture more rewarding. When they learn to deal with the branches below ground, they likely will be better above ground personal. Many of us whine about men leaving them to compete against them and it is a fact, it happens. Many times it is because they have learned all they can from you. If climbing is all they see, their interest may not be sparked for, as long as; learning apr,phc.ipm!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Thank you, jps. Good answer, and if i were to start my own business (heaven forbid), you would seem like a guy to call if i had problems-and i would not have a problem paying a fee for that kind of service. [/quote}

Wheew! good thing i looked down..I was slathering the sarcasm a little thicker just now.

Kinda sucks, I did put a little effort into the stuff i just deleted

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I don't think he would charge for something so basic. However I always wonder about teaching something that could allow injury if not in a hands on relationship. Best advice is go to work with someone who is a pro and learn all you can.

I've not, though it can become a comedic tragedy when I find myself with a start-up company with little experiance whatsoever. This is when things usually get broken and I end up not making much money. I have learned to ask questions and avoid, or charge out the wazoo.

"what, you don't have ANY insurance...you mean we are working on mine?"

 

[ropensaddle]

I've not, though it can become a comedic tragedy when I find myself with a start-up company with little experiance whatsoever. This is when things usually get broken and I end up not making much money. I have learned to ask questions and avoid, or charge out the wazoo.

"what, you don't have ANY insurance...you mean we are working on mine?"

Now that is funny working on yours I have a friend that likes to do that. He thinks he should get half, I have often told him that's fine when you pay for half including inventory and a little for my efforts obtaining clients

 

[tree md]

If you are a small time owner/operator I think it makes a lot of sense to hire a consultant if you are trying to incorporate newer, more modern climbing and rigging systems into your operation. Kind of hard to do that when you are your own sole climber. You know how hard it is to teach old dogs on the ground new tricks from 60' up? Sure you can explain it the best you can but there is a dozen times a day I wish I was on the ground so I could show them what to do. Sure, you can hire a climber and work the ground yourself to train them but good climbers are hard to come by and with the economy being the way it has been for the past two years that has just not been an option. With production being the name of the game it's hard to take the time to do training sessions. I am always up for learning new tricks as well.

Personally, hiring a consultant for a day or two would be great for me and my business.

I would rather hire someone who I know (have personally met), respect and like than a total stranger.

 

[ropensaddle]

If you are a small time owner/operator I think it makes a lot of sense to hire a consultant if you are trying to incorporate newer, more modern climbing and rigging systems into your operation. Kind of hard to do that when you are your own sole climber. You know how hard it is to teach old dogs on the ground new tricks from 60' up? Sure you can explain it the best you can but there is a dozen times a day I wish I was on the ground so I could show them what to do. Sure, you can hire a climber and work the ground yourself to train them but good climbers are hard to come by and with the economy being the way it has been for the past two years that has just not been an option. With production being the name of the game it's hard to take the time to do training sessions. I am always up for learning new tricks as well.

Personally, hiring a consultant for a day or two would be great for me and my business.

I would rather hire someone who I know (have personally met), respect and like than a total stranger.

Yup well said, now send some ice buddy so's we can work lol.

 

[justme23005]

Jeez, can we get our lips off your cheeks for maybe just a minute??

This is my problem with "experienced" treemen these days. They like to preach you need more education, you need more education, you need more education. Ok, fine, why do i now have to pay you to get this education that you and guys like you tell me i so desperately need? What exactly can you teach me that would be worth paying for? About all i've seen is if i need to order something from stp, you'd be the guy to call. You guys and your "i'm not going to teach you anything till the check is in the mail" attitude is getting out of hand. My teachers never charged me for their time, they were happy to spend a little time teaching an enthusiastic youngster how to carry on in a job they loved. I've never charged someone to get together or for advice ( it's so simple, i can't even send you an email with a question and expect an answer unless a check is on the way?) How is this good for advancing knowledge. So you supposedly know something about trees that no other arborist knows, and now it's time to cash in? I'm tired of going to lectures or workshops by arborists who aren't coming up with anything new and having to pay a couple hundred dollars. Why do these guys, why do you, think you have to walk away with a couple grand just to flap your lips? Is it the ego boost?

Now i have no problem paying someone for their time, or paying gas money, or whatever. But don't you think it's getting ridiculous when you won't even answer an email unless money is forthcoming? Pathetic, you and your ilk are an insult to those who actually love the work and are willing to share their knowledge without expecting a huge monetary gain.

Very well put.. Too many people climb trees with big ego's and a closed mind... It's really hard to learn anything that way.

 

[jefflovstrom]

You want a hands on relationship with me rope? Won't jeff get jealous.

:love1:
Jeff, never jealous.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Here is one you don't want in your collection

 

[jefflovstrom]

That there is just mean. Have you no soul, JP???
Jeff

 

[Bermie]

Sure, tree work pays my bills, I'm a pro in the making, every job teaches me more!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

That there is just mean. Have you no soul, JP???
Jeff

Here's one of Charly Pottorff out on the town

 

[sgreanbeans]

WOW! After reading all that about JPS, only makes the waiting for him to come down this summer harder to deal with (RV spot is already done JPS) I will have no problem handing him a nice check for the knowledge that he will share, the constructive criticism he will give me about my operation will be welcome. To watch him in action will be even better.
I do not understand what the problem is, paying for his knowledge will be a great investment. To expect someone to give it away for free, well, that isn't right.
I am in no way,shape or form putting myself on a pedestal, but I do feel I have a pretty good grip on Arboriculture. That said, I know that there are volumes of knowledge in his head that I have not even begun to dig into. Jeff and TV, the same. I am just a novice in comparison and wish that I started this pursuit of knowledge along time ago.
Often after talking to him, I find my self in the books, looking up a single word that he said. Butt kissing, nope, trying to better myself by asking someone who I consider a mentor, yep.
There a several guys on here, that I feel are great teachers/mentors. Who have spent the most of their lives learning. That was not free, therefore, they should get paid for their investment. It was not free to them, why should it be free to me?