Generator and sizing

[Whitespider]

I didn't use one because I wanted/needed to power more than just the house. My "main" service panel is out on the pole with separate beakers for each building (the well pump is in the well house, on a separate breaker from the house). The panel doesn't have a "main" breaker, each breaker is the "main" for each building. The panel is mounted just a couple inches below the meter so installing a transfer switch would mean having the utility company cut power and relocating my breaker panel on the pole... which would mean at least some reworking of the underground lines to the well house and shop. And likely would have required new wires/connections at the meter... meaning I pay.

The simpler, faster and by far less costly solution was to mount a second panel on the pole with a breaker for each building I wanted to power and "jumper" those breakers over to the breakers in the main panel. When the grid goes down I shut off the breakers in the main panel, plug the generator into the second panel, fire up the generator, a finally turn on the breakers in the second panel (house, well house, and garage/shop). By doing it that way even my security light out on the pole lights up.

Because the pole is right next to the shop, the generator can sit under-roof while running... I just open one overhead door partway to run the cord out and allow fresh air exchange. With the garage side of the shop powered I have lights for refueling the generator and such (yeah, I fuel it as it's running). There'a a fourth breaker in the main panel for the shop side of the garage, mostly for the welder, drill press, table saw and whatnot, but there is a couple lights on it also; but it ain't "jumpered" to a breaker into the second panel so I can leave it on and turn on one of those lights... when that light comes on (I can see it from the house) I know grid power has returned.

Disconnection is just reversed. First I turn off the breakers in the second panel, kill the generator, unplug it, finally turn on the breakers in the main panel.

As long as you keep two rules in mind it's almost impossible to screw-up...

1. When connecting the generator the very first thing you do is turn off the breakers in the main panel.
2. When disconnecting the generator the very last thing you do is turn on the breakers in the main panel.

And there's a makeshift sign mounted inside the door of both panels to remind me, or the wife, of those two rules (actually, it's a step-by-step procedure for the wife).
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[Chris-PA]

I may be wrong but wont a generator not work if the main breaker is open. Everyone on that line will be pulling from it over drawing it.

About the only way your generator could energize the lines is if by some chance a section of the lines are disconnected from the rest of the system and from other homes/loads on your circuit. Your home generator cannot drive multiple homes/loads, nor can it drive a short on the line, it will stall out or disconnect. It is possible that you could energize a portion of the line that is down and accessible but not creating a load, or otherwise creating a shock hazard.

Electricity is dangerous if you don't know what you are doing.

A transfer switch typically works as a sub panel and would require me to rewire my main panel, and to choose what circuits I would like to be able to run. Those would be the only circuits that could be run by the generator.

 

[kodiak]

I added a generator backup connection to my main panel and included a lock-out kit to help ensure the main CB is switched OFF before the breaker that feeds gen power can be switched on. My power cooperative requires this at a minimum for any permanent installation of a generator connection.

My 6.8KW gen will not power everything so there is a written start up procedure that includes shutting off all large inductive loads prior to switching over to the generator. Once the gen is switched over and things stabilize, the inductive loads get brought back online one at a time with a proper delay period in between each of them.

 

[firebrick43]

Kodiak, thanks for posting that picture. That would at least keep the someone wondering through and flipping on a breaker. That is the problem I have with not using the transfer switches with a generator. You may be the most responsible person and knowing but I am not worried about you. I am worried about your friend visiting, or your kids, or your kids idiot friend. Thats who I am worried about. Many industrial electricians have been injured or killed because they were working on a deenergized circuit and the someone walking by says to themselves> "Duhh, that box is off let me turn it on, duhh" . Hence forth since idiots are abound electricians and mechanics have to use lockout/tagout. That plate is pretty close to it.

 

[Chris-PA]

I added a generator backup connection to my main panel and included a lock-out kit to help ensure the main CB is switched OFF before the breaker that feeds gen power can be switched on. My power cooperative requires this at a minimum for any permanent installation of a generator connection.

My 6.8KW gen will not power everything so there is a written start up procedure that includes shutting off all large inductive loads prior to switching over to the generator. Once the gen is switched over and things stabilize, the inductive loads get brought back online one at a time with a proper delay period in between each of them.

Thanks for posting that - I was not aware of those and I like that idea. I will look for one that fits my panel.

 

[Whitespider]

You may be the most responsible person and knowing but I am not worried about you. I am worried about your friend visiting, or your kids, or your kids idiot friend.

Hmmmm.... I didn't mention...
For that very reason, both my boxes, the main panel and the "jumpered" panel, are locked with padlocks... only the wife and I know where the key can be found.
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[Chris-PA]

Hmmmm.... I didn't mention...
For that very reason, both my boxes, the main panel and the "jumpered" panel, are locked with padlocks... only the wife and I know where the key can be found.
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Hmm - I think a locked breaker box might just be more dangerous than other things that have been discussed here!

 

[Dirtboy]

Hmmm, kinda got off topic here. To answer the original question, I had a 5500W-6250 starting W genny. It ran my fridge, well pump, sump pump, microwave, the igniter on my hot water tank, some lights & the TV. Obviously, I don't use the microwave while I am taking a shower, don't know if it would have enough juice. I have since moved up to a 7000W-8250 starting W genny. No hiccups now when multiple stuff kicks on.
I had an electrician install a transfer switch so everything was safe and the wife could use it if necessary. Not going to get involved in the debate about transfer switches-the peace of mind is worth it to me.

 

[Mad Professor]

How about this:

http://greenmountaingenerators.com/product/mep002a-5kw-military-diesel-generator/

 

[kybaseball]

Thanks for all the great comments on this subject. I put in a 10 circuit transfer switch. Though we would need it before i could get it all done. Me and my son hook the last wires up Saturday night at 11:15. No test run could be done woke up Sunday to freezing rain. Didn't lose power this time. We are going to have a test run this afternoon just to see what kind of pull we have on the generator and if things need to be moved around.

 

[Mad Professor]

Pics Please

See link:

http://greenmountaingenerators.com/product/mep003a-10kw-military-diesel-generator/

 

[kodiak]

Something else to consider is that when the generator is connected to the panel, there should be no bond between ground and neutral on the generator itself. It took me a while to locate the bonding wire on mine and only a minute to remove it.

Now if I use the generator as a stand-alone unit I need to regain this bond. To accomplish this I took a male replacement plug and wired the gnd and neutral terminals together. This plug then goes into one of the available outlets when needed.

 

[mesupra]

I recently sold my homelite 4400 after it struggled to start my well pump, I replaced it with a predator generator rated at 7000/8250 from harbor freight. After breaking it in with no to little load for several hours I gave it the test of powering the well pump with great results, it actually powers the whole house without a struggle. I really wanted to justify a diesel set but for the two three power outages a year I could not justify the cost. I ended up spending $529.99 and so far so good. From the reviews and my experience the harbor freight generators are hard to beat for the price. I actually could not find a suitable used one around here for the same cost.

 

[Whitespider]

Hmm - I think a locked breaker box might just be more dangerous than other things that have been discussed here!

Why would that be?? Seriously, I'm not seeing why.
I mean... well... I work around coops, grain legs, and other such all the time, all of their outdoor service panels are either locked by padlock or built-in key lock.
Both of my panels (outdoor panels) came with padlock loops provided on them.

I believe if you check the National Electric Code, "blocking" access to a panel is not acceptable, but...
The "locking" of outdoor service panels is acceptable.
Locking the doors of of indoor service panels containing overload protection (breakers, fuses, etc.) is acceptable if the load side of the circuit(s) has additional overload protection (of less amperage).
And finally, locking any service panel that is at risk of "unauthorized" access is not only acceptable, but required in some instances (such as at a fair grounds).

Well... my pole mounted panels fit all three...

• They are outdoors.
• The circuits go to individual buildings with indoor service panels containing lower amperage protection (for example, the house breaker on the pole is 100 amp, which feeds a panel in the house with multiple breakers... 230 volt, 60 amp being the largest).
• And because they are outdoors they are always at risk of "unauthorized" access.

 

[Chris-PA]

Why would that be?? Seriously, I'm not seeing why.
I mean... well... I work around coops, grain legs, and other such all the time, all of their outdoor service panels are either locked by padlock or built-in key lock.
Both of my panels (outdoor panels) came with padlock loops provided on them.

I believe if you check the National Electric Code, "blocking" access to a panel is not acceptable, but...
The "locking" of outdoor service panels is acceptable.
Locking the doors of of indoor service panels containing overload protection (breakers, fuses, etc.) is acceptable if the load side of the circuit(s) has additional overload protection (of less amperage).
And finally, locking any service panel that is at risk of "unauthorized" access is not only acceptable, but required in some instances (such as at a fair grounds).

Well... my pole mounted panels fit all three...

• They are outdoors.
• The circuits go to individual buildings with indoor service panels containing lower amperage protection (for example, the house breaker on the pole is 100 amp, which feeds a panel in the house with multiple breakers... 230 volt, 60 amp being the largest).
• And because they are outdoors they are always at risk of "unauthorized" access.

I know all that, but the idea of not being able to access the disconnect is not appealing to me.

 

[Whitespider]

I recently sold my homelite 4400 after it struggled to start my well pump.

Evidently not all well pumps are created equally.
My 230 volt well pump is fused at 10 amps... figuring a nominal 230 volts that's only 2300 watts max.
Most circuits are fuse at 120%... meaning a 230 volt, 10 amp circuit is designed to carry about 1850 watts.
But I've actually started and run my well pump with one of those little portable 1200/1500 watt generators without any problems in the past
Heck, with the 5500/6500 watt generator I have now, it don't even cause the generator engine governor to move when the pump starts... the lights don't even dim.
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[mesupra]

1hp pump, 240ft deep, back feeding 120' from my shop. The homelite would barley start the pump and never really recover until the pump shut off. I ended up selling it for $450 during our last outage, It was a cheap way to upgrade. The homelite Briggs was a nice combo, real simple and reliable.

 

[Whitespider]

I know all that, but the idea of not being able to access the disconnect is not appealing to me.

I guess I don't see them as un-accessible , just locked (the key is actually on the pole, tucked behind the metal ID plate).

But, my question was more about the "danger" you see in it.
I was referring to your comment, "...locked breaker box might just be more dangerous than other things ....discussed..."
I'm not trying to be a smart-azz or justify anything... my question was serious... what danger are you seeing that I am overlooking??
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[Chris-PA]

But, my question was more about the "danger" you see in it.
I was referring to your comment, "...locked breaker box might just be more dangerous than other things ....discussed..."
I'm not trying to be a smart-azz or justify anything... my question was serious... what danger are you seeing that I am overlooking??
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Yeah, I'm not either - the danger would be in the event of an electrical fire that did not trip the breaker that it might not be accessible to you or to emergency personnel. In terms of fire the dangerous type of electrical fault is not a dead short, partly because that would trip the breaker, but rather resistive faults that get hot below the tripping point. That's all.

 

[nathon918]

Yeah, I'm not either - the danger would be in the event of an electrical fire that did not trip the breaker that it might not be accessible to you or to emergency personnel. In terms of fire the dangerous type of electrical fault is not a dead short, partly because that would trip the breaker, but rather resistive faults that get hot below the tripping point. That's all.

so your saying you dont like that you wouldnt be able to disconnect the power that feeds the panels inside the structures?
if so, what would be the difference if he didnt have a disconnect on the pole, and the utility was fed directly from the meter socket to his panel? because as long as the panel is within 10ft of where the utility enters the building it doesnt need a disconnect.
so if there was a fire in his panel how would you disconnect power to it? gonna call the utility and ask them to come turn it off for ya???
same would apply if there was a fire started in his disconnect on the pole...