Secondary Burn

[513yj]

Spidey I think you have to give up. Some people ain't got a clue what it is like trying to heat a house in -35* weather and will never understand the gripe someone like I has. I have an EPA stove and I will say it again,, it is as useless as a bag of broken rubber hammers (and uses a whole lot of wood) when it gets below 0*F. Nobody, nowhere is going to change my mind as I have experienced this firsthand and I don't like it. Anyone can spout of at the mouth with their opinion but the real fact is when it's butt crack cold out I would like a bottom draft, period. My garage stove doesn't have a problem keeping the garage temp stable with coals when I open the bottom draft but this EPA stove when not half to wide open (using a heck of a lot more wood) ashes over and I have to stir and babysit it to keep the house at a bearable temp when its really cold out.

 

[zogger]

Spidey I think you have to give up. Some people ain't got a clue what it is like trying to heat a house in -35* weather and will never understand the gripe someone like I has. I have an EPA stove and I will say it again,, it is as useless as a bag of broken rubber hammers (and uses a whole lot of wood) when it gets below 0*F. Nobody, nowhere is going to change my mind as I have experienced this firsthand and I don't like it. Anyone can spout of at the mouth with their opinion but the real fact is when it's butt crack cold out I would like a bottom draft, period. My garage stove doesn't have a problem keeping the garage temp stable with coals when I open the bottom draft but this EPA stove when not half to wide open (using a heck of a lot more wood) ashes over and I have to stir and babysit it to keep the house at a bearable temp when its really cold out.

So basically, the only epa stoves worth much in seriously cold temps are conventional design, with the cat in the top?

 

[brenndatomu]

when it's butt crack cold out I would like a bottom draft, period.

Butt crack cold...? Brr, sounds cold I think I'm gonna go throw another log in the far

 

[Whitespider]

Spidey I think you have to give up. Some people ain't got a clue...

Well... well... well... a voice of reason... a voice of experience... a voice with no ax to grind... a voice of agreement. (With me‼)
Are you sure your wood is dry enough??

Yeah, you're correct, they will never understand... partially because the refuse to, partially because of their belief in magic.
But, I'll keep tryin'... I like stirrin' the pot
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[Whitespider]

Butt crack cold...? Brr, sounds cold

Yeah man... that's colder than frozen sour owl crap‼
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[Chris-PA]

Yeah, you're correct, they will never understand... partially because the refuse to, partially because of their belief in magic.

So then - if the problem is at very low temperatures, how come you can't make an "EPA" stove work at 40°? I can. No problems at 0° either. Clearly, based on your own statements there is something else to it other than temperature.

 

[Whitespider]

So then - if the problem is at very low temperatures...

Please... quote me where I said issues are only at very low temperatures.
I believe what I've said (repeatedly) is... the colder it gets, the worse the issues (or problems) get.

That's what I see as the most aggrieves thing about this whole discussion... some of y'all reading more into what is posted, than what is actually posted.

Take for example the post from 513yj. He did not post that the stove only performs poorly at very low temperatures. He did not post that the stove performs fantastically in warmer temperatures. He did not post anything about performance at warmer temperatures period... he didn't even reference them‼
He simply posted that the stove, "is as useless as a bag of broken rubber hammers (and uses a whole lot of wood) when it gets below 0*F. ...this EPA stove when not half to wide open (using a heck of a lot more wood) ashes over and I have to stir and babysit it to keep the house at a bearable temp when its really cold out."
If you read into that more than what he posted... that's on you.

Are his issues exactly like mine?? He!! No‼ His house ain't my house, he don't live where live, his stove ain't my stove, his wood ain't my wood... but his issues are friggin' pretty damn close‼ And that brings us right back to what I keep sayin'... the elitist technology just ain't the best choice for every application, under every condition. It is not, and never will be the be-all-to-end-all... there ain't no such thing‼ Like I said, if there was such a thing, we'd all be runnin' radial tires

Oh... that, and of course the ridiculous notion that the wood ain't seasoned
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[Chris-PA]

Please... quote me where I said issues are only at very low temperatures.
I believe what I've said (repeatedly) is... the colder it gets, the worse the issues (or problems) get.

That's what I see as the most aggrieves thing about this whole discussion... some of y'all reading more into what is posted, than what is actually posted.

Take for example the post from 513yj. He did not post that the stove only performs poorly at very low temperatures. He did not post that the stove performs fantastically in warmer temperatures. He did not post anything about performance at warmer temperatures period... he didn't even reference them‼
He simply posted that the stove, "is as useless as a bag of broken rubber hammers (and uses a whole lot of wood) when it gets below 0*F. ...this EPA stove when not half to wide open (using a heck of a lot more wood) ashes over and I have to stir and babysit it to keep the house at a bearable temp when its really cold out."
If you read into that more than what he posted... that's on you.

Are his issues exactly like mine?? He!! No‼ His house ain't my house, he don't live where live, his stove ain't my stove, his wood ain't my wood... but his issues are friggin' pretty damn close‼ And that brings us right back to what I keep sayin'... the elitist technology just ain't the best choice for every application, under every condition. It is not, and never will be the be-all-to-end-all... there ain't no such thing‼ Like I said, if there was such a thing, we'd all be runnin' radial tires

Oh... that, and of course the ridiculous notion that the wood ain't seasoned
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You misread my comment.

The entire comment by 513yj was about how useless these stoves are at very cold temperatures. You chimed in and agreed that we will never understand - fair enough, it doesn't get to -35° in PA.

But in fact you find them useless at all temperatures, based on your stated inability to even raise your garage temperature to 60° at an outside temperature of 40°, while building up a 4" to 5" layer of coals that buried 3 splits in 2hrs (as well as many, many other examples). You have attested that your stove does not work in any temperatures - repeatedly and adamantly in thread after thread. But 40° I certainly do understand, and 0° too. I use my EPA stove in such temperatures all winter long with none of your problems, as do many others.

So in effect you are correct that we will probably never understand, as we have direct experience that runs counter to yours.

What I actually don't understand is how a stove with a firebox no bigger than that of your Specturm, with an air intake that pulls air through a grate under the fire, will uniformly heat your (poorly insulated) house to a steady 70° in such godawful low temperatures, and provide a 6-12hr burn time. That to me is fantastical.

 

[513yj]

So then - if the problem is at very low temperatures, how come you can't make an "EPA" stove work at 40°? I can. No problems at 0° either. Clearly, based on your own statements there is something else to it other than temperature.

It's not bad but it's also not that great at 0* and it hardly burns anything at 40* because I have the damper all the way down which allows it to coal and make the temperature in the house what I want. When it gets to 0* I have to keep the damper over half way open to keep it 72* in the house. If i close it up then it goes to coal, builds up ashes and snuffs the coals and guess what happened?? It's now down to 61* in my house and the natty gas furnace kicked in. I want a bottom damper so it does not drop in temp so much or I have to get up in the night to put more wood in because when it's further open it consumes more firewood.

 

[Locust Cutter]

That made me think. When mine is dampened all the way down, (good heat when not full of coals) my average burn time from solid light-off is about 2-4 hours depending no how heavy I load it. If I burn it an more opened 1/4 throttle or more, the heat goes up a bit, but the burn time is about 1-2.5hrs. 1/2 or more is stupidly fast. The coals aren't bad but I'm feeding it continuously. On the flip-side, my buddy's circa 9 year old VC Defiant, regardless of outdoor temp, will burn 4-8hrs (with the cat engaged) depending on soft or hard wood and load size. A heavy load of Hedge will last 7-9 hours before it's small coals and fine ash. I was trying to avoid a cat stove, but may still end up with one.

 

[Whitespider]

But in fact you find them useless at all temperatures...

Nope... never said that. Never used the word useless... never said all temperatures.
I've said several times (paraphrasing) I believe it would be a useful addition to a cozy den or some such.

You have attested that your stove does not work in any temperatures...

Does not work?? Well then... quote where I've said that.
It burns wood, that's what it's supposed to do... I've said it does it in a crappy way, not that it "does not work".

I use my EPA stove in such temperatures all winter long with none of your problems, as do many others.

Tell me... exactly how many times do I have to concede that before you drop it??
I friggin' know that... I'm happy for you that you're happy... but that in no way means they will work for everyone, in every application, under all conditions. You keep telling me that just because my results have been negative not everyone will have negative results... and I continuously concede that. Then I tell you that just because your results have been positive not everyone will have positive results... and you continuously refuse to concede that, pointing out what (you believe) I'm doing wrong. You refuse to acknowledge that the device may be inappropriate for the application... you refuse to acknowledge anything except I'm the one screwing-up.
Sorry man... I'm not the one being unreasonable in this.

...we have direct experience that runs counter to yours.

Once again... I have acknowledged and conceded that... several times.
I (we) have direct experience that runs counter to yours... so... now what?? Could it be the... never mind...

What I actually don't understand is how a stove with a firebox no bigger than that of your Specturm, with an air intake that pulls air through a grate under the fire, will uniformly heat your (poorly insulated) house to a steady 70° in such godawful low temperatures, and provide a 6-12hr burn time. That to me is fantastical.

Why fantastical?? Because your experience differed from mine??
Am I callin' your experience with elitist stoves fantastical just because it differs from mine??
How 'bout this... you were screwin' it up, the smoke dragon was the wrong size, you were runnin' it to hard, and your wood was too dry (plus a dozen others I ain't got to yet). No friigin' way it was the appliance, because I have never had your problems. Give me a break‼

It's about the magic... ain't it??
*

 

[Chris-PA]

Nope... never said that.

You are attempting to redirect the conversation by focusing on semantics - I did not claim you "said" the stove was useless, I wrote that you "find" it useless because you are unable to make it work under any conditions. I'm just going on the many things you have posted about this stove. I do not recall one instance where you have said you have been able to make the stove function correctly. It hasn’t mattered what temperature it is outside, or if it was in your house or shop, it has always failed you.

Why fantastical?

No, my gut feel is that a a load of wood that size, putting out enough heat to warm a poorly insulated house to a steady 70° at sub-zero temperatures, isn't going to last 6-12hrs. Therefore I find the claim fantastic.

 

[farmer steve]

OK... maybe... but more heat from half the wood is still way out there in left field.
Let's say your elitist stove is exceptionally good, and your old smoke dragon was exceptionally bad... "real world" numbers of 45% and 90%.
7000 × 100 × .45 ÷ 12 = 26250 BTU’s per hour (average) for the smoke dragon.
7000 × 50 × .90 ÷ 12 = 26250 BTU’s per hour (average) for the elitist stove.

Ya' still ain't gettin' more heat‼


You don't have to... it ain't about you Del_, get over it.
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anyone else having an issue with viewing Dels' posts. i get an error message saying i don't have permission to view the post. maybe i'm on his ignore list for some reason or other.

 

[Whitespider]

anyone else having an issue with viewing Dels' posts.

I don't know who, why or when... but his early posts in this thread were removed.
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[farmer steve]

I don't know who, why or when... but his early posts in this thread were removed.
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thanks Spidey. FS

 

[Whitespider]

No, my gut feel is that a a load of wood that size, putting out enough heat to warm a poorly insulated house to a steady 70° at sub-zero temperatures, isn't going to last 6-12hrs.

I don't believe I said it would heat for 6-12 hours "at sub-zero temperatures"... you're reading more into what was posted than what was posted.
I believe I said it would heat for 6-12 hours depending on quantity and quality of fuel load, heating demand, and whatnot.

I know this ain't a direct comparison... but it's what I've got right now...
Last night I came home to a 70° house at 5:15 PM... the wife told me I didn't need to check the box because she tossed in three pieces about 2:30 or 3:00. At 8:00 PM I put seven splits (not oak, the stuff from the free load) in the box (easily would fit in the old box, or the Spectrum). I rolled-out at 4:45 this morning, it was still 70° in this house, started the coffee and walked down to check the box. A nice screamin' hot bead of coals, no need to add any fuel. Given the mild(ish) temps we're having right now (33°) and calm winds (10 MPH), I figure there won't be any need to add fuel for another 4-6 hours... and then it will only be two or three splits. That's gonna' put it at something over 15 hours on 7 splits...

10 hours after loading seven, 16-inch long splits of firewood... not oak or anything special.


It really ain't all that fantastic... believe me...
Am I gonna' get 15 hours when it's sub-zero outside?? He!! No‼
Can I get 6 or 7 hours on a little larger load?? He!! Yes‼
With the larger firebox of the DAKA, I can get an easy 10 hours with a big load of oak at sub-zero temperatures (I've never "filled" it, it would be too hot in here)... but the old box wasn't that big, so a "full" load of oak (10-12, maybe 13 splits depending) was required for 6 or 7 hours at sub-zero temps.
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[Whitespider]

And here's the bed of coals after 10 hours...
Screamin' friggin' hot, not ashed-over, and pumpin' out just the right amount of heat to cycle the circulation blower on about 3 times an hour... keepin' the house at a steady, even 70°.
Ain't no magic... ain't nothin' fantastical about it...

 

[Whitespider]

Like I said in an earlier post, with a smoke dragon (or an up-draft style box if you'd rather) it ain't so much about how you "set" adjustments... it's more about how much, with what, and when you load it. I hear the argument that the auto-draft blower makes "adjustments" for me... but none of my others had that. I see it as givin' me a bit more room for error when loading... I can load a bit on the light side (therefore never overheating the house) and the draft blower plays catch-up when, and if, needed. Without the draft blower, it was easier to error... occasionally your "gut" told you to overload a bit and the house might get to 73°, or on rare occasion 75°. If you erred on the light side, you noticed pretty quick, and just walked down and tossed another split or two in. Actually, I believe the draft blower causes me to use a bit less fuel because I load a touch on the light side. And the DAKA is damn miserly on fuel consumption until temps start gettin' into single digits and lower, especially after sundown... but that ain't unexpected, it-is-what-it-is.
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[Whitespider]

12 hours

 

[slowp]

I'm confused. First coals are bad. Now they are good. EPA stove bad, then OK for den.

You give a very big impression, from your posts in any thread where EPA is mentioned, that any stove meeting such requirements is useless for heating a house. In all temps at that. Should anybody take you seriously, they will have to spend more $$ than originally planned if their house has no ducts for that wood furnace, and miss the ambiance of a working elitist communist stove.

Now, I have lived where it got to merely 28 below. That was pre-EPA days and I had an Earth Stove in a 1910 vintage house which was insulated with sawdust. I'd chunk it full before bed, turn it down, and wake up to a coal or two--enough to get it going without newspaper. The house would be cold, but not freezing. It was a larger stove than needed for that house. I imagine if I lived there again, I'd put a larger EPA stove than I have here. That's just common sense--no drama needed. I would think it would heat as well with less chimney cleaning needed. I had to take the elbow into the wall out, and run a ski pole in it to unclog it every month. Oh, and I also had a poorly tarped wood stack--no wood shed. It was a much drier climate than on this side of the mountains, but a woodshed would have kept the wood drier.

In that valley, there would now be a burning ban slapped on during such weather. So, the below zero argument is probably a moot point for that. They get terrible inversions and need to keep the air clean as tourism is now the main business.

I guess I should have bought the house this year. It was on the market. I could have installed a communist elitist stove in it so we could find out. Nah, I'd rather spend $$ on a house with modern insulation and construction. Insulation is a good thing.