Climbing Friction Knots

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What's your preferred climbing/positioning knot?

  • Blake's Hitch

    Votes: 53 32.1%
  • Distel (screwed up Schwabisch)

    Votes: 11 6.7%
  • Knut or TK (Knut with a twist)

    Votes: 6 3.6%
  • Martin (Blake's on a split tail)

    Votes: 16 9.7%
  • Prusik

    Votes: 15 9.1%
  • Schwabisch (top heavy prusik)

    Votes: 11 6.7%
  • Taughtline Hitch

    Votes: 17 10.3%
  • TK (Knut with a twisted bight)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • VT or other French Prusik derivative

    Votes: 32 19.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 2.4%

  • Total voters
    165
Must have me confused with someone else. I don't do the hiring for my company. I'm just a simple climber.

At least this old dog can do his old tricks properly. It worries me a bit that you can't start the Blake's correctly. But maybe I just misunderstood what you were trying to say.

I've explained my sig line to you once before but I'll try again. A person once asked me after I finished a job if I had no fear. I replied that no, fear is what keeps me from doing something stupid-fear is what keeps me safe.
I agree with you that having no fear is not a good thing. But if you can't understand my sig line, I'll stop using it. I wouldn't't want new climbers reading it and jumping to the wrong conclusion. Thank you for reminding me of the poor job our schools seem to be doing these days. Sincerely, Andy.
in my life it was not the school but more the student. i dont think any new climbers will want to get any thing from your posts anyway because there not educational and more like spam and a bunch of meaningless comments. u r right we spoke before and i realized we are on a completely different book. i use AS is a learning sight nothing more. i think u have major short term memory loss of just full o ****. maby u should apply at wesspur as the people over there are all to common. u know what im saying! are ya still working 4 spikes tree CARE pruning apples & dogwoods? do me a huge favior and stop talking to me as i only learned 1 thing from u and i rather not say. besides if u aint got nothing nice to say dont say it at all. you only pi$$ me off with any of your comments and seem 2 like putting words in my mouth and sticking your mouth where it dont need 2 b.the first thing u said to me on AS was i need 2 invest in some good equipment/tools/hooks. u got no clue
so please if u are any kind a decent fella just leave me alone! thanx WLL
 
A Split Tail is when you use a separate section of line/cord for your Friction Hitch. A Blake's or a Tautline can use a Split Tail. This makes it easier to reset TIP and gives a disposable/wearable piece of line, that doesn't shorten lifeline when you need a fresh Friction Hitch section etc.

A Martin and most the other hitches are Split Tails plus, you use both ends of the Split Tail in a Basket type (in sling language) attachment as opposed to the more linear/choke/ single leg attachment of the Blake's and Tautline. Another way to look at it is the Blake's and Tautline are 'open' type designs with a free end that should always have a stopper knot in it. A Tautline is decidely rotational, and can walk off the job without a stopper. A Blakes's really shouldn't walk out; as it is like an advanced Anchor Hitch/Bend standing on it's own bootstrap, but with even more Turns than Anchor, to reduce pull on the Bitters/tail even more, to be even less likely of coming out; but good sense, and the rules dictate a stopper on any 'open' hitch configuration that your life is depending on. The other hitches use both ends and are more of a 'closed' configuration.

A Blake's tied wrong is a Sui-Slide (from MTL). When tying Blake's; Watch where you place the Bitter End/Tail at finish; in comparison to the Standing End /start of the Hitch. Observe the rotation that the Standing Part/ start pulls in; see if you place the Bitters/ end on the wrong side of the climbing line the rotation of the Standing Part/ start of Blake's can pull the Bitters/end tighter /closed or looser/open!! Under this observation, logic should tell you which way is SuiSlide and which is lifesaving Blake's!

A Distel and Schwab are virtually same; a Coil (4 uninterrupted Turns); that the top leg of the Coil serves under the Coil and makes a Half Hitch preceder (to the loading; of your bodyweight underneath). In Distel the Half Hitch continues in same direction as other Turns; like a Clove and Tautline; giving the same slanted Z type 'bar' as the over wrap and like these the ends feed out opposite sides. In Schwab, this final Hitch/ Turn is jsut reversed of the others; like a Cow/Prussik/Girth; and the same as these; gives a stragiht type 'bar' overwrap; and the ends feed out the same side (making it 'neater' for some applications). Both are not self tending.

An Icicle most resembles a Sailor's Gripping Hitch by mechanichs; and both are self tending designs. But, an Icicle is vedddy close to a Schwab in how you make it. Notice how the Icicle has the same Coil, straight bar and the ends feed out the same side (as pictured in 1st page of this thread). Make a Coil (4 uninterrupted turns) around the host/mount/lifeline and bring the top leg down like to make Schwab to bottom of Coil, and roll that end up under that leg to make a loop, so that loop is on top of lifeline and both ends of the cord are together on top of lifeline under Coil, then bring both ends around behind lifleine and thru that loop. Kind of the same Half Hitch finish only not around lifeline, but around the ends (after you reeve them thru). But now, the hitch is self tending(fairly).

i prefer Icicle, Sailor's Gripping and my adaptation in flat Tenex as cord device, rather than a round cord device because it is less leveraged and has a broader gripping footprint on the host lifeline mount of the hitch.

A TK is jsut like a Knut; only where a Knut has a Half Hitch/loop finish, the TK has a Marl/Overhand finish. These are both of the selftending class; that buffer loading to both ends of the Coil and have a stiff 'ring' as tender at Coil base.

Some Animations

Orrrrrrrrrrrr something like that......
OOOooops hear come the post length police again!:taped:
 
TreeSpyder...Have you ever used the icecicle with Bee-line? I haver really noticed how different knots act diffenetly with different cord/split-tails. I like the looks of that knot...very interesting.
 
A Split Tail is when you use a separate section of line/cord for your Friction Hitch. A Blake's or a Tautline can use a Split Tail. This makes it easier to reset TIP and gives a disposable/wearable piece of line, that doesn't shorten lifeline when you need a fresh Friction Hitch section etc.

A Martin and most the other hitches are Split Tails plus, you use both ends of the Split Tail in a Basket type (in sling language) attachment as opposed to the more linear/choke/ single leg attachment of the Blake's and Tautline. Another way to look at it is the Blake's and Tautline are 'open' type designs with a free end that should always have a stopper knot in it. A Tautline is decidely rotational, and can walk off the job without a stopper. A Blakes's really shouldn't walk out; as it is like an advanced Anchor Hitch/Bend standing on it's own bootstrap, but with even more Turns than Anchor, to reduce pull on the Bitters/tail even more, to be even less likely of coming out; but good sense, and the rules dictate a stopper on any 'open' hitch configuration that your life is depending on. The other hitches use both ends and are more of a 'closed' configuration.

A Blake's tied wrong is a Sui-Slide (from MTL). When tying Blake's; Watch where you place the Bitter End/Tail at finish; in comparison to the Standing End /start of the Hitch. Observe the rotation that the Standing Part/ start pulls in; see if you place the Bitters/ end on the wrong side of the climbing line the rotation of the Standing Part/ start of Blake's can pull the Bitters/end tighter /closed or looser/open!! Under this observation, logic should tell you which way is SuiSlide and which is lifesaving Blake's!

A Distel and Schwab are virtually same; a Coil (4 uninterrupted Turns); that the top leg of the Coil serves under the Coil and makes a Half Hitch preceder (to the loading; of your bodyweight underneath). In Distel the Half Hitch continues in same direction as other Turns; like a Clove and Tautline; giving the same slanted Z type 'bar' as the over wrap and like these the ends feed out opposite sides. In Schwab, this final Hitch/ Turn is jsut reversed of the others; like a Cow/Prussik/Girth; and the same as these; gives a stragiht type 'bar' overwrap; and the ends feed out the same side (making it 'neater' for some applications). Both are not self tending.

An Icicle most resembles a Sailor's Gripping Hitch by mechanichs; and both are self tending designs. But, an Icicle is vedddy close to a Schwab in how you make it. Notice how the Icicle has the same Coil, straight bar and the ends feed out the same side (as pictured in 1st page of this thread). Make a Coil (4 uninterrupted turns) around the host/mount/lifeline and bring the top leg down like to make Schwab to bottom of Coil, and roll that end up under that leg to make a loop, so that loop is on top of lifeline and both ends of the cord are together on top of lifeline under Coil, then bring both ends around behind lifleine and thru that loop. Kind of the same Half Hitch finish only not around lifeline, but around the ends (after you reeve them thru). But now, the hitch is self tending(fairly).

i prefer Icicle, Sailor's Gripping and my adaptation in flat Tenex as cord device, rather than a round cord device because it is less leveraged and has a broader gripping footprint on the host lifeline mount of the hitch.

A TK is jsut like a Knut; only where a Knut has a Half Hitch/loop finish, the TK has a Marl/Overhand finish. These are both of the selftending class; that buffer loading to both ends of the Coil and have a stiff 'ring' as tender at Coil base.

Some Animations

Orrrrrrrrrrrr something like that......
OOOooops hear come the post length police again!:taped:

post length police. are u serious??? or is that a joke.
 
in my life it was not the school but more the student. i dont think any new climbers will want to get any thing from your posts anyway because there not educational and more like spam and a bunch of meaningless comments. u r right we spoke before and i realized we are on a completely different book. i use AS is a learning sight nothing more. i think u have major short term memory loss of just full o ****. maby u should apply at wesspur as the people over there are all to common. u know what im saying! are ya still working 4 spikes tree CARE pruning apples & dogwoods? do me a huge favior and stop talking to me as i only learned 1 thing from u and i rather not say. besides if u aint got nothing nice to say dont say it at all. you only pi$$ me off with any of your comments and seem 2 like putting words in my mouth and sticking your mouth where it dont need 2 b.the first thing u said to me on AS was i need 2 invest in some good equipment/tools/hooks. u got no clue
so please if u are any kind a decent fella just leave me alone! thanx WLL

Funny you seem to be the only one spamming with your one liners. You can have whatever for you like to learn from, but still doesn't change the fast that noone likes you any where. Oh and did you get my PM from the other place??? And beowolf go ahead a leave him alone. He can all the equipement he needs, a line mans belt, his spikes and his little echo. Gotta let the little boys play grown-up every now and then. And if you don't like how long spyde's posts well here a tip don't read them. It would only confuse you if you where even able to comprehend them.
 
And then there is the even better performing 'sort of' VT called the XT.
(yes, you are seeing two twist between braids)

attachment.php
I found you can eliminate the lower twists and replace them with a micro-pulley. This shortens up the throw.

I have a job for spyder or someone else interested in doing a good comparison of hitches.
Tie each one and weight it with a couple hundred pounds, then test each hitch for three performance features, how many pounds to break it loose, how long the throw is, and a subjective rating of how smoothly it runs with a full load.
Of course you'll have to do the experiment with a few different cords.
Then catalog the results in a nice chart.
 
A Split Tail is when you use a separate section of line/cord for your Friction Hitch. A Blake's or a Tautline can use a Split Tail. This makes it easier to reset TIP and gives a disposable/wearable piece of line, that doesn't shorten lifeline when you need a fresh Friction Hitch section etc.

A Martin and most the other hitches are Split Tails plus, you use both ends of the Split Tail in a Basket type (in sling language) attachment as opposed to the more linear/choke/ single leg attachment of the Blake's and Tautline. Another way to look at it is the Blake's and Tautline are 'open' type designs with a free end that should always have a stopper knot in it. A Tautline is decidely rotational, and can walk off the job without a stopper. A Blakes's really shouldn't walk out; as it is like an advanced Anchor Hitch/Bend standing on it's own bootstrap, but with even more Turns than Anchor, to reduce pull on the Bitters/tail even more, to be even less likely of coming out; but good sense, and the rules dictate a stopper on any 'open' hitch configuration that your life is depending on. The other hitches use both ends and are more of a 'closed' configuration.

A Blake's tied wrong is a Sui-Slide (from MTL). When tying Blake's; Watch where you place the Bitter End/Tail at finish; in comparison to the Standing End /start of the Hitch. Observe the rotation that the Standing Part/ start pulls in; see if you place the Bitters/ end on the wrong side of the climbing line the rotation of the Standing Part/ start of Blake's can pull the Bitters/end tighter /closed or looser/open!! Under this observation, logic should tell you which way is SuiSlide and which is lifesaving Blake's!

A Distel and Schwab are virtually same; a Coil (4 uninterrupted Turns); that the top leg of the Coil serves under the Coil and makes a Half Hitch preceder (to the loading; of your bodyweight underneath). In Distel the Half Hitch continues in same direction as other Turns; like a Clove and Tautline; giving the same slanted Z type 'bar' as the over wrap and like these the ends feed out opposite sides. In Schwab, this final Hitch/ Turn is jsut reversed of the others; like a Cow/Prussik/Girth; and the same as these; gives a stragiht type 'bar' overwrap; and the ends feed out the same side (making it 'neater' for some applications). Both are not self tending.

An Icicle most resembles a Sailor's Gripping Hitch by mechanichs; and both are self tending designs. But, an Icicle is vedddy close to a Schwab in how you make it. Notice how the Icicle has the same Coil, straight bar and the ends feed out the same side (as pictured in 1st page of this thread). Make a Coil (4 uninterrupted turns) around the host/mount/lifeline and bring the top leg down like to make Schwab to bottom of Coil, and roll that end up under that leg to make a loop, so that loop is on top of lifeline and both ends of the cord are together on top of lifeline under Coil, then bring both ends around behind lifleine and thru that loop. Kind of the same Half Hitch finish only not around lifeline, but around the ends (after you reeve them thru). But now, the hitch is self tending(fairly).

i prefer Icicle, Sailor's Gripping and my adaptation in flat Tenex as cord device, rather than a round cord device because it is less leveraged and has a broader gripping footprint on the host lifeline mount of the hitch.

A TK is jsut like a Knut; only where a Knut has a Half Hitch/loop finish, the TK has a Marl/Overhand finish. These are both of the selftending class; that buffer loading to both ends of the Coil and have a stiff 'ring' as tender at Coil base.

Some Animations

Orrrrrrrrrrrr something like that......
OOOooops hear come the post length police again!:taped:

post length police. are u serious??? or is that a joke.


Spydee's been around here for quite some some and you are the only one that has a problem with his post lengths.............ahh............OK
 
A vote for Blakes but...

I use a Blakes hitch tied with a single eyed split tail (aka prusik)

From my experiences with rope rescue terminology in the fire service, I have heard the term prusik used both as the name of the small sections of rope use to tie friction hitches and for the knots themselves. Seems as though they are interchangeable.

I like the easy controlled descent rendered by the Blakes (I can descend with the pressure of one finger on my running end) I think I would be interested if anyone thinks they have a knot that has that kind of control but also might lend itself to easier ascention, which is a drawback of a blakes hitch in my opinion.
 
I have a job for spyder or someone else interested in doing a good comparison of hitches.
Tie each one and weight it with a couple hundred pounds, then test each hitch for three performance features, how many pounds to break it loose, how long the throw is, and a subjective rating of how smoothly it runs with a full load.
Of course you'll have to do the experiment with a few different cords.
Then catalog the results in a nice chart.


Our brutha Paola/Lazarus/TreeMettlenexus has already, graciously performed this service i believe; an i depth study with governmeant funding. i had 2 more, but they have been taken down/ dead links/ can't google/ wayback machine is fumbling too. Shoulda/coulda/woulda stole them fer the vault if i thought that was how it'd go; crossing all borders to save a life!!

HSE

Another; less intense

Materials tests


But, we are close to getting caught up in the macho/ tensile only view with blinders on once again. Some slip, stretch etc. can be good in certain ranges to dissipate harmful force etc. Do you want hitch to hold with such suddenness as to tear you in 2; rip spleen etc. Or is at such high force some slip allowable to dissipate steam/ high force from system? Then, we are mostly into closed/2 leg/basket style hitches now; must they hold to lifeline beyond other connections? etc.

Also, we assume everything is new in these tests; but in field we deal with CTF(Cycles to Failure); and degeneration of glazing etc.
 
Last edited:
Fireaxman,

I am glad you settled on a hitch you feel comfortable with, I know you were having quite a time searching for the right one that suits your climbing needs. I wouldn't give up on a VT, the first time I tried it I about fell out of the tree I was in and swore I would never use that hitch, but I got brave and tried it again only this time with a different cord. Big difference. I abandoned the VT for awhile thinking there was something better just around the corner, but instead I found myself coming back to a VT.

What I meant about other hitches getting tight after a period of time is that as the cord breaks in and loses that outer abrasion coating the more they grip the rope and bind inwardly in the hitch itself. This is not so much a bad thing but can get a little annoying, I myself have not had this problem with a VT with any cord I have tried, no matter how much time is put on the cord.

The worst offender of this for me was the Swabish hitch, it was a great hitch when it was introduced, I thought it couldn't get any better than a Swabish, but as time went on and the cord I was using at the time just kept getting tighter and tighter on my climbing line and would not advance unless I undid the bridge and loosened the coils, like I had to do with Tautline and a Blakes. So where is the gain in using an advanced hitch if it starts to behave like an old school hitch.

A little trick I use when climbing with a VT is that after you have taken up your slack is to put your hand above the hitch, with a quick forward motion set the hitch this way instead of just using your weight by settling back in the saddle with one hand on the hitch and letting go. This set the hitch motion is very similar to jamming the tail to set the brake of an open hitch like a Tautline , Blakes, open Prussik,

Larry
 
Last edited:
currently using a blakes... I'm amazed at number of people using VT.

maybe I should give it a try. already using distal on my DEDA lanyard.
 
Our brutha Paola/Lazarus/TreeMettlenexus has already, graciously performed this service i believe; an i depth study with governmeant funding. i had 2 more, but they have been taken down/ dead links/ can't google/ wayback machine is fumbling too. Shoulda/coulda/woulda stole them fer the vault if i thought that was how it'd go; crossing all borders to save a life!!

HSE

Another; less intense

Materials tests



But, we are close to getting caught up in the macho/ tensile only view with blinders on once again. Some slip, stretch etc. can be good in certain ranges to dissipate harmful force etc. Do you want hitch to hold with such suddenness as to tear you in 2; rip spleen etc. Or is at such high force some slip allowable to dissipate steam/ high force from system? Then, we are mostly into closed/2 leg/basket style hitches now; must they hold to lifeline beyond other connections? etc.

Also, we assume everything is new in these tests; but in field we deal with CTF(Cycles to Failure); and degeneration of glazing etc.

I think you misunderstood what information I was looking to compile. Not breaking strength, but hitch usability. How much effort it takes to advance each hitch.
 
thanks for the links... looks like blakes came out ahead in HSE tests..
also confirmed double fisherman is a safe way to join two ropes together.

Our brutha Paola/Lazarus/TreeMettlenexus has already, graciously performed this service i believe; an i depth study with governmeant funding. i had 2 more, but they have been taken down/ dead links/ can't google/ wayback machine is fumbling too. Shoulda/coulda/woulda stole them fer the vault if i thought that was how it'd go; crossing all borders to save a life!!

HSE

Another; less intense

Materials tests


But, we are close to getting caught up in the macho/ tensile only view with blinders on once again. Some slip, stretch etc. can be good in certain ranges to dissipate harmful force etc. Do you want hitch to hold with such suddenness as to tear you in 2; rip spleen etc. Or is at such high force some slip allowable to dissipate steam/ high force from system? Then, we are mostly into closed/2 leg/basket style hitches now; must they hold to lifeline beyond other connections? etc.

Also, we assume everything is new in these tests; but in field we deal with CTF(Cycles to Failure); and degeneration of glazing etc.
 
OOOOps sorry Mike i did kinda jump the gun and not read well there!

As to further testing; lots of variables in style, lines, wear, how tightly cinched etc.

As to the (un)rest of some of it; i don't see any (t)reason why any should beat up on each other;
accept MM and i.
 
blakes here...willing to try something new tho

046 I'm with you once again, I'm still using Blake's hitch but interested in all this talk about VTs and other 'advanced' hitches...especially if they make working the tree easier. Yes MM, I do fair lead with micro pulley for one-handed slack tending on the Blakes. Is the general concept of the VT that it produces less friction making an easier ascent? I mean Blakes is awfully simple and smooth on the descent.

Has anyone fooled with a self-advancing Blakes using an adjustable bridge (prusik) from working end of climbing line to micro pulley under Blakes?
 
best vt cordage for arbormaster climbing line?

Hoping someone can save me some 'experimental' time. I'm interested in trying out the VT and all my climbing line is Arbormaster. Does one cord or another work best on it? Thanks in advance.
 
I have been a big fan of Tenex. We just got some bee-line...so far so good.
 

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