if any of uuuuu, ever get the opportunity to take a carb apart,,thats had eth sitting in it a bit toooo long..youll never run that garbage again.......................................
Is ethanol really that bad?
- Thread starter Joel D'Angelo
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Adding the ethanol makes the exhaust cleaner. That is the general idea it was ethanol or mtbe for a while but mtbe was bad if it made it to groundwater.
One effect of adding ethanol or methanol is that the mixture will allow water to become soluble, undoubtedly water soluble substances along with that. If it is like it is supposed to be just ethanol added to refined crude oil gasoline in the ratio posted probably not a big issue.
Old gasoline turned to shellac after a few years your results will likely vary depending on the storage conditions.
One effect of adding ethanol or methanol is that the mixture will allow water to become soluble, undoubtedly water soluble substances along with that. If it is like it is supposed to be just ethanol added to refined crude oil gasoline in the ratio posted probably not a big issue.
Old gasoline turned to shellac after a few years your results will likely vary depending on the storage conditions.
7sleeper
Addicted to ArboristSite
EXCELENT post!!! What anyone want's for storage is plastic like HDPE. It is one of the major fuel resistent plastic's out there. Further from a molecular level, highly apolar so that it is "absolutely" impervious to air born water. So just turn over your fuel container and check. All plastics have the type of plastic molded into the form.
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thanks. one thing for sure, ethanol will attract H2O!
good tips here. I definitely subscribe to the post that suggests for OP-E equip being put up for a spell... drain the fuel with ethanol, and run it dry with some no ethanol fuel.
Every carb I have rebuilt in the last few month had "goo" in it. I put Stabil Marine in all the gas I use in the mower and my Echo 2 cycle mix has the stabilizer in it. I go through about 4-5 gallons of a gas a week in the mower so it never really sits around. My 2 cycle plastic gas container sits around for maybe a month before I've gone through it all. My biggest fear is if I don't take the motorcycle out for a few weeks. I hate rebuilding those carbs.
Another good point is I only use high traffic gas stations. That way I know the gas is not just sitting....
Another good point is I only use high traffic gas stations. That way I know the gas is not just sitting....
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
What is interesting is that I also use a lot of Echo 2-cycle mix, and nothing but E10, and I often keep my mix longer than month - I never have goo in my carbs. They all seem to be whistle clean when I pull them apart.
I'm not doubting your experience, I'm just curious what the difference might be.
bmwpowere36m3
ArboristSite Operative
E10 is all that's available in my parts, barring going to an airport for 100LL or marina for higher octane.
In all my years, I can't recall having any problems with E10. Sure, I've had to rebuild a carb or two that sat for YEARS with no treatment. I buy fuel (usually 89 octane) from a local station with a lot of traffic, so it's always fresh. When it comes time for storage (winter for me), I mix in some Stabil Marine formula and all is well. In season, I mix a gallon at a time... lasts me a few weeks to a month. I'll also keep a 5 gal tank of straight gas. Basically I try to only keep enough gas sitting for a month or so... In winter I'll keep a little more and keep it treated.
In all my years, I can't recall having any problems with E10. Sure, I've had to rebuild a carb or two that sat for YEARS with no treatment. I buy fuel (usually 89 octane) from a local station with a lot of traffic, so it's always fresh. When it comes time for storage (winter for me), I mix in some Stabil Marine formula and all is well. In season, I mix a gallon at a time... lasts me a few weeks to a month. I'll also keep a 5 gal tank of straight gas. Basically I try to only keep enough gas sitting for a month or so... In winter I'll keep a little more and keep it treated.
7sleeper
Addicted to ArboristSite
Aquired brand new or used? That is clearly a problem in this discussion that many commenters are mixing experience levels and often relaying their quality standards to the standards of others. So if I buy a used saw from someone who has no idea and no interest in careing for his equipment and experiencing some time down the road problems, well I shouldn't be suprised and blame something that just appears at the moment an easy scapegoat.
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Bilge Rat LT 20
ArboristSite Operative
If you want to see goo, tan sand, rust and other crud from ethanol just come south. Hot temps and humidity will set ethanol off.
Here is a little fact, Federal regulations state that no ethanol mixed fuel can be stored in any fuel distrubition tank/fuel dealer.
Ethanol can only be added/mixed with fuel as it is loaded into a fuel tanker that will then deliver it to a gas station/end seller that day.
After delivery the E10 has a shelf life of 30 days
The feds reason for this, ethanol blended fuel seperates, attracts moisture, and causes corrosion in the storage tanks and pipes.
If it is unsafe to store E10 in a fuel storage facility why would you think it is safe/stable in your tank and saws.
Even the gov't knows ethanol blended fuel causes problems.
It also dissolves some of the resins in fiberglass tanks in boats. Lots of outboard motors have been messed up and many boats have had to replace fuel tanks.
Here is a little fact, Federal regulations state that no ethanol mixed fuel can be stored in any fuel distrubition tank/fuel dealer.
Ethanol can only be added/mixed with fuel as it is loaded into a fuel tanker that will then deliver it to a gas station/end seller that day.
After delivery the E10 has a shelf life of 30 days
The feds reason for this, ethanol blended fuel seperates, attracts moisture, and causes corrosion in the storage tanks and pipes.
If it is unsafe to store E10 in a fuel storage facility why would you think it is safe/stable in your tank and saws.
Even the gov't knows ethanol blended fuel causes problems.
It also dissolves some of the resins in fiberglass tanks in boats. Lots of outboard motors have been messed up and many boats have had to replace fuel tanks.
if you turn the fuel for your small engine stuff quickly, you may be ok....any longer than about a month,,ALL bets are off!!! like bilgerat said..it nearly ruined a carb on a kohler 18 twin!!!! nearly plugged all passages,,and rotted out the bottom of the fuel bowl!!no more!!! ive emptied every last one out,,and refilled with no eth fuel....looked like slimly salt crystals in the bottom.......
7sleeper
Addicted to ArboristSite
That fuel stored at the distribter is unmixed has actually quite a simple answer. It actually has NOTHING to do with ethanol. It has to do with the fact that irrespective of distributer brand ALL local gas stations, irrespective of brand name, are getting their delivery from this single distributer. And ALL brand name have different additives added to their fuel which claim that their fuel is the "best". These additive packeges are added when the fuel tanker is filled so that each brand is "special".
Where do you have this information from? I can't find this type of information on any homepage of any fuel company, goverment site or any other based on scientific research.
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From an O P E consumer stand point there's not one good thing about ethanol, all Negative.
I would say about 70% of the saw repairs I do are ethanol related issues.
Here's a little more on the topic.
I would say about 70% of the saw repairs I do are ethanol related issues.
Here's a little more on the topic.
Is ethanol that bad?
Yes, for the following reasons:
1) Ethanol does not explode like gasoline does, it does not have the same stoichiometric properties as gasoline.
2) I have read that 10% ethanol equates to leaning out of fuel to air mixture by about 4%. What a complete waste of volume for a substance that confers absolutely zero benefit to the performance of an engine. This volume of fluid that is leaning out your mixture would be infinitely better off as 2 cycle oil (obviously not at 10%, maximum of say, 4% oil).
3) Ethanol is hygroscopic/hydrophilic.
4) Can certain additives be added to gas to neutralize the detrimental effects? There's a ton of them that claim to, and some probably do work, however no additive on Earth can negate the fact that you still have 10% (or more) of volume of a fluid that is taking up space that could otherwise be used my more oil (within reason obviously) which would increase power and engine longevity.
5) Ethanol attacks rubber gaskets and fuel lines. This can be mitigated, but I didn't get to vote on not having ethanol in 99% of the pump gas in my state, so I'll "vote with my wallet" and pony up for something like Trufuel, or I'll go the cheaper router and use 100ll from my local airport even though it's not optimal like the aforementioned, or VP Racing, et.al.
6) There's an official document that is sternly warning about the appearance of E-15 with respect to 2 strokes--within a matter of minutes, a 2 stroke engine literally blew apart when run on E-15. Also, on motor vehicles that got along fine with E-10, E-15 causes engine damage in some 4 cycle automobile engines. Do the big-agribiz lobbyists care? Nope, from their point of view, you can go pound sand, it's "your problem".
Yes, for the following reasons:
1) Ethanol does not explode like gasoline does, it does not have the same stoichiometric properties as gasoline.
2) I have read that 10% ethanol equates to leaning out of fuel to air mixture by about 4%. What a complete waste of volume for a substance that confers absolutely zero benefit to the performance of an engine. This volume of fluid that is leaning out your mixture would be infinitely better off as 2 cycle oil (obviously not at 10%, maximum of say, 4% oil).
3) Ethanol is hygroscopic/hydrophilic.
4) Can certain additives be added to gas to neutralize the detrimental effects? There's a ton of them that claim to, and some probably do work, however no additive on Earth can negate the fact that you still have 10% (or more) of volume of a fluid that is taking up space that could otherwise be used my more oil (within reason obviously) which would increase power and engine longevity.
5) Ethanol attacks rubber gaskets and fuel lines. This can be mitigated, but I didn't get to vote on not having ethanol in 99% of the pump gas in my state, so I'll "vote with my wallet" and pony up for something like Trufuel, or I'll go the cheaper router and use 100ll from my local airport even though it's not optimal like the aforementioned, or VP Racing, et.al.
6) There's an official document that is sternly warning about the appearance of E-15 with respect to 2 strokes--within a matter of minutes, a 2 stroke engine literally blew apart when run on E-15. Also, on motor vehicles that got along fine with E-10, E-15 causes engine damage in some 4 cycle automobile engines. Do the big-agribiz lobbyists care? Nope, from their point of view, you can go pound sand, it's "your problem".
7sleeper
Addicted to ArboristSite
1. Of course ethanol doesn't explode like gasoline does, that is why gasoline is the main property of the mix. Further as every knows gasoline is a mix of different types of hydrocarbons and the highly volotile are also the same that easily change from a fluid state to a gas state. These are equally the same that we hear leaving the container as soon as one opens the fuel cap. So clearly everyone has experienced the effect of having "old" fuel start harder. This has very little to do with any ethanol.
2. But if someone doesn't have his carb adjusted to the type of fuel he uses or the elevation level he is at, well then their is no one nor anything like ethanol, etc. to fault for having a saw burn up...
3. Ethanol is hygroscopic. So what does this tell us? Of course we all have our fuel stored in "air tight" HDPE fuel containers. So one cubic yard of air contains at ambient temperatures a few drops of water. Further we all know that HDPE plastic is about impermeable to water. So for water to contaminate our fuel mix, where does it come from...
4. Clearly you are not serious about exchanging oil against ethanol. That is clearly a very unwise thing to do because going over a certain level you easily decrease your engine power and increase carbon build up. Just to be sure you understand the mathematics, all manufacturers recomend a mix of 1:50, that equates to 2% two stroke oil in the mix! Going to your 10% that would equate to 1:10 mix...
5. Of course everyone is free to do with his money. Will your saws live one day longer? I highly doubt it. But to be honest I prefer to use NON leaded exhaust comming straight to my face from using my saws. You on the other hand prefer leaded 100ll airport fuel.
6. I would really love to see this document! And this stupid statement clearly shows how little knowledge and so much paranoia are present in this topic! A few simple questions that you are free to find out on yourself. What type of fuel do drag racers or rc two strokes run on? On what type of fuel do the cars in Brasil run on? I feel sorry for you that you might recieve quite a shock in your little world! I'll give you a hint.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil
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No, it's in there because it's a huge moneymaking scam forced upon the public in the name of helping the environment, which is a lie for multiple reasons.
1. Of course ethanol doesn't explode like gasoline does, that is why gasoline is the main property of the mix.
Guess what, a lot of equipment (i.e. landscaping outdoor power equipment) nowadays have carbs that are completely non-adjustable because of the fascist EPA. And when I say non-adjustable, there are no hidden carb adjustments to defeat, there is nothing you can pry open or grind out to reveal anything.
It's absorbing water molecules right out of the atmosphere the moment you are pumping it into a container. The point is, there's no benefit to having something added to gas that has an undesirable chemical property that non-ethanol gas does not have.
You didn't read my post thoroughly and instead reacted in a knee-jerk fashion:
If you think 2% of a real, quality synthetic 2 cycle oil (such as Mobil 1 Racing 2T) will result in less carbon buildup and more power than 32:1 or 25:1, you are sadly mistaken, and that's not my opinion, it's a fact.
"Manufacturers" "recommendations" are not "their" recommendations--they're saying that only because of the EPA. Those low amounts of oil like 50:1 are based around being able to pass EMISSIONS. Most manufacturers would FAIL EPA requirements if they fueled their engines with 32:1, 25:1, or 20:1 ratios. You buy a Husqvarna chainsaw in America, and it will say "50:1", you go and buy that exact same model chainsaw in Australia, and it will say "25:1", because Oz doesn't have to cowtow to the EPA like we do here. Oh and Aussie Husky saws also say that you void your warranty if you use any less oil than 25:1.
You'd really love to see it eh? Here you go:
15% ethanol destroys 2 cycle.... good read.
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/15-ethanol-destroys-2-cycle-good-read.197321/
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/52909.pdf
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/30/aaa-e15-gas-harm-cars/1735793/
AAA warns E15 gasoline could cause car damage
^ I guess the above are all "paranoid!" because you said so, obviously you're more of an authority.
bmwpowere36m3
ArboristSite Operative
Ethanol debates are like oil and religious ones...
I'll preface that my opinion is based on E10 (no E15 available).
Ethanol has its pluses and minuses. Do the pluses outweigh the minuses, not in my opinion. However, is it really a problem? Depends, but with a little knowledge and care... not in my experience (i.e., can be dealt with easily). Would I really go out of my way to get ethanol-free fuel, no. In my location it just isn't available. If it was, then I'd use it in my OPE. In my cars and motorcycles, depending on price.
Would I buy "pre-mixed" fuel (Motomix, TruFuel, etc...) to use in-season, no because I use enough to keep it "fresh". Would I buy 1 quart to "winterize" my equipment, sure.
Just too many variables to make blanket statements... If you plan to use E10, just realize its "shelf-life" and deal with it accordingly. Really comes down to usage. Use often, E10 is not a problem. Use sporadically, E10 can be a problem.
I'll preface that my opinion is based on E10 (no E15 available).
Ethanol has its pluses and minuses. Do the pluses outweigh the minuses, not in my opinion. However, is it really a problem? Depends, but with a little knowledge and care... not in my experience (i.e., can be dealt with easily). Would I really go out of my way to get ethanol-free fuel, no. In my location it just isn't available. If it was, then I'd use it in my OPE. In my cars and motorcycles, depending on price.
Would I buy "pre-mixed" fuel (Motomix, TruFuel, etc...) to use in-season, no because I use enough to keep it "fresh". Would I buy 1 quart to "winterize" my equipment, sure.
Just too many variables to make blanket statements... If you plan to use E10, just realize its "shelf-life" and deal with it accordingly. Really comes down to usage. Use often, E10 is not a problem. Use sporadically, E10 can be a problem.
bmwpowere36m3
ArboristSite Operative
Lets not even get into mix ratios... sometimes people just can't accept change. Like 3000 mile oil changes.
Full Chisel
Slingin' Stihls and runnin' Huskies
There really are no benefits to E10 unless you are in the corn industry. That is plain and simple. But I do think some of the claims have been blown out of proportion. As long as you are turning over your fuel supply within reason(1-2 months tops) and storing fuel in airtight, approved plastic containers your problems due to running E10 will be minimal to non-existent.
