Chinese Stihl's? Something to think about...:)

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Absolutely nothing new in this thread. Products have been produced in china since decades. This topic seems to come up every half year with the same paranoia beliefs expressed.

If you want anything without chinese components, we won't be hearing from you anymore. Not any electronic product on the market without any chinese component in it. Beginning wit rare earth metals, which china happens to be the largest worldwide producer by far, ending with that smartphone everyone loves.

Good luck in phantasy land!

7
 
Having worked both in Automotive Manufacturing and Stihl I have to correct a few idioms here. I have toured the Stihl China plant and can sate that I heard a great deal Of English and German spoken. The machinery was that same as I saw in Waiblingen, the labor and the generous tax breaks, free building sites and skilled labor make it attractive. I think this Made in the US mentally has gone terribly wrong. I recall Tim Cook being asked why the apple iphone is made in china. He looked rather uncomfortable but answered he said you can take all the tool and die makers in the US and put them in a large boardroom.. then he said a name of a small Provence in china and stated you would need 2 football fields to place their tool and die makers in. Having worked in Automotive for about 25 years I have been across the ponds many times and I would see the same machinery and materials BUT the only difference I saw was the labor force. They would work for less, work harder and still produce the same top notch products. There was never a night shift because the workers did not have their 15 breaks during the day. It is a different world out thee gents. You evolve or you die.

food for thought..

The U.S. debt to China is $1.115 trillion, as of October 2016. That's 29 percent of the $3.841 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $19.9 trillion debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S. government itself
 
a. palmer jr. said:
Looks to me like Europe isn't gonna last long anyway thanks to Angela and her liberal friends...
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History shows that Europe has been through much much worse and landed back on top. Seeing as the new prez wants to keep building in the USA I can see more and more call for highly skilled labor and THAT will be coming from Europe courtesy of Angela and her liberal friends. :eek:
 
We have a Mercedes plant down the road right here in Alabama. I've been there a few times. So clean you can eat off the floor. Most amazing logistics and automation. The manufacturing model is based off the Japanese of which had its roots in American ingenuity put in place during the rebuilding after WWII. I trust German manufacturing where ever it may be. They are a very stubborn folk and consumers will benefit.
 
7sleeper said:
Absolutely nothing new in this thread. Products have been produced in china since decades. This topic seems to come up every half year with the same paranoia beliefs expressed.

If you want anything without chinese components, we won't be hearing from you anymore. Not any electronic product on the market without any chinese component in it. Beginning wit rare earth metals, which china happens to be the largest worldwide producer by far, ending with that smartphone everyone loves.

Good luck in phantasy land!

7
Click to expand...
Not everyone. I refuse to buy one.
 
Rockjock said:
History shows that Europe has been through much much worse and landed back on top. Seeing as the new prez wants to keep building in the USA I can see more and more call for highly skilled labor and THAT will be coming from Europe courtesy of Angela and her liberal friends. :eek:
Click to expand...
Europe wouldn't be Europe if the US hadn't stepped in. I think you're taking a lot of liberties saying Europe is "on top".
 
I bought a saw from Stihl this year and it was noted "it is one of the only ones still made in Germany' - as opposed to the bulk of production being in the USA. But I think with M-Tronic, etc, the quality of manufacturing of the carb becomes extremely important. And I have to wonder if they still make the carburetors in Germany.

These discussions may be circular, the quality of materials used to create components may be a key factor, and China may be able to produce quality merchandise, but a key problem in my mind is corruption. Is the Chinese part you are depending on a part made on Wednesday night, when the quality inspector on-the-take was in charge, so everyone involved got to exceed their quota that day and collect a bonus?
 
Yeah carbs have been a iffy for me. One for a 017 has worked flawlessly so far, but on the other side a briggs and stratton mower carb had something way off inside, it would get hot during the summer and keep on drawing fuel into the carb, flooding the engine and making a huge mess.
 
Rockjock said:
Having worked both in Automotive Manufacturing and Stihl I have to correct a few idioms here. I have toured the Stihl China plant and can sate that I heard a great deal Of English and German spoken. The machinery was that same as I saw in Waiblingen, the labor and the generous tax breaks, free building sites and skilled labor make it attractive. I think this Made in the US mentally has gone terribly wrong. I recall Tim Cook being asked why the apple iphone is made in china. He looked rather uncomfortable but answered he said you can take all the tool and die makers in the US and put them in a large boardroom.. then he said a name of a small Provence in china and stated you would need 2 football fields to place their tool and die makers in. Having worked in Automotive for about 25 years I have been across the ponds many times and I would see the same machinery and materials BUT the only difference I saw was the labor force. They would work for less, work harder and still produce the same top notch products. There was never a night shift because the workers did not have their 15 breaks during the day. It is a different world out thee gents. You evolve or you die.

food for thought..

The U.S. debt to China is $1.115 trillion, as of October 2016. That's 29 percent of the $3.841 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $19.9 trillion debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S. government itself
Click to expand...

When you owe that much the people you borrowed it off are the ones who should having sleepless nights not you.
 
Rockjock said:
Having worked both in Automotive Manufacturing and Stihl I have to correct a few idioms here. .... I think this Made in the US mentally has gone terribly wrong. ..... Having worked in Automotive for about 25 years I have been across the ponds many times and I would see the same machinery and materials BUT the only difference I saw was the labor force. They would work for less, work harder and still produce the same top notch products. There was never a night shift because the workers did not have their 15 breaks during the day. It is a different world out thee gents. You evolve or you die.

food for thought..

The U.S. debt to China is $1.115 trillion, as of October 2016. That's 29 percent of the $3.841 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $19.9 trillion debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S. government itself
Click to expand...

So I gather you are a part of the Stihl organization? Do you represent how they feel at a corporate level? Those "workers" are also representative of a lot of your customer base as they innovate a way to make a living, sometimes in the agriculture or forestry industry. Of course I was in the thick of the manufacturing technology transfer from here to there back in the 1980's and 1990's and have insight that haunts me to this very day. I too have been across both ponds many a time, usually dealing with engineering level and management level types. Mine was a technology business. I had to assess a companies ability to ingest and make successful what often was quantum level jumps in technology. AND as I have said many times, there are no shortage of smart folks pretty much everywhere. Having spent several years dealing with manufacturing technology here and abroad, I also know in my heart it wasn't the American work force (often your customer) who let the manufacturing go away and their skill levels along with work ethics weren't an issue at the core either. Our manufacturing collapse happened partly because of politics and general apathy as a result of politically prioritized education as well. And yes the short view often demanded by the financial types didn't help either. And last but not least, the management style that allowed Union politics to flourish with an arrogant misunderstanding of what they had. The SAME work force that produced many of the tools to win two world wars and put energy into the industrial revolution before that. They developed so much of the manufacturing technics and practices right here. That spirit never left.. Everything from deep draw, progressive dies, to CNC machining...developed right here. APT, developed right here. Die casting, Semi conductors....yup...and that spirit was ripped apart by the politics of the last 1/2 century that has infected everything from education to culture. So when folks think about that 1.115 trillion number you tosses around. Think about what happened to where a typical person can't buy a product made here anymore. Why did that happen. What happened to the American companies and institutions. What were the political drivers.....it had nothing to do with the talent pool or their desire to work. It was a sell out on a scale never before seen in history. And the election cycle we are in right now happened because those folks feel something is wrong and they are beginning to grapple with what that is...to be honest I don't care if the product I buy is from Germany or China. Not a bit. But at least the Chinese are gracious. It is a bit ironic my last presentation and sale was to a large German Automotive company who bought source code (great folks BTW, had a lot of fun with them, at the tech level)....wow. I have dealt with so many "management" level folks who would say exactly the same thing you did... and over time look what happened.. yup you are right, evolve or die. SO many companies transition from innovators to cash cows...usually defined by the "new" management cultures...IBM, Smith Corona, Sperry Univac/Burroughs now "Mikes little computer company" Unisis, Computervision, Prime, Homelite, McCulloch.....maybe Stihl??
 
I was a factory worker starting in the 60's and watched the factory disappear around me, ironically starting around the time of NAFTA. We bought parts from vendors everywhere, mostly Japan but later they started moving whole factories to mexico, China, etc, then they told us to pack our things...
 
weimedog said:
Why did that happen. What happened to the American companies and institutions.
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The root cause is the declining net energy return of our fossil fuel energy sources. It takes ever more energy to get every unit we burn. That translates directly into increased costs. All sorts of games are made to hide those costs and to shift them off to others in order to pretend things work, but the costs don't go away. They percolate through the entire system, making things that used to work fail. The biggest way they manifest is in terms of systemic debt, and the costs of that debt must be serviced.

The increasing costs of debt and energy meant there was not enough return on investment in factory production, even with shifting costs off to others, and so manufacturing stuff was no longer profitable enough. Some companies went all-in for even more automation, but that leaves them vulnerable to further energy cost increases. Others reversed factory automation by sending manufacturing overseas where it could be done by almost free manual labor. Shipping costs must be dealt with, but ships are pretty efficient.

Naturally, once things started to go downhill and owners didn't believe that manufacturing would be a long term benefit to them, they began stripping any assets out of the organizations they could. Then we graduated a generation of MBA who believed in something for nothing and didn't understand anything about what was happening. They shipped anything and everything overseas to make numbers look good in the next quarter, hoping to make themselves look good and get promoted out of that group before things went wonky.

Beware anyone who says they can fix it. We could certainly make better choices about the dumb stuff we've done, but you can't fix the fundamental cause.
 
Chris-PA said:
The root cause is the declining net energy return of our fossil fuel energy sources. It takes ever more energy to get every unit we burn. That translates directly into increased costs. All sorts of games are made to hide those costs and to shift them off to others in order to pretend things work, but the costs don't go away. They percolate through the entire system, making things that used to work fail. The biggest way they manifest is in terms of systemic debt, and the costs of that debt must be serviced.

The increasing costs of debt and energy meant there was not enough return on investment in factory production, even with shifting costs off to others, and so manufacturing stuff was no longer profitable enough. Some companies went all-in for even more automation, but that leaves them vulnerable to further energy cost increases. Others reversed factory automation by sending manufacturing overseas where it could be done by almost free manual labor. Shipping costs must be dealt with, but ships are pretty efficient.

Naturally, once things started to go downhill and owners didn't believe that manufacturing would be a long term benefit to them, they began stripping any assets out of the organizations they could. Then we graduated a generation of MBA who believed in something for nothing and didn't understand anything about what was happening. They shipped anything and everything overseas to make numbers look good in the next quarter, hoping to make themselves look good and get promoted out of that group before things went wonky.

Beware anyone who says they can fix it. We could certainly make better choices about the dumb stuff we've done, but you can't fix the fundamental cause.
Click to expand...

Bethlehem Steel, "Sylvania", Pennsylvania Rail Road (Made a business of making energy available) ....list goes on. And what about Coal?? And Fracking for Natural Gas? So we ship energy in from over seas....pouring resources away, which along with "buying" Manufacturing is another reason more resource goes out than into this nation. Fixing the cause...maybe those "MBA" types can come up with a paper fix..:) Also can't ignore the cost of a welfare State either, look at your Neighbor State to the North; and the taxes required to run it...many of which add to the cost of energy. And is also a residual cost of hiring the rest of the world to build our stuff. We had IBM, New Departure, Carrier, GE, Grumman, Zerox, Kodak, Long Island was like California with its Aerospace and so many others...some real innovation and hard work defined the manufacturing infrastructure that supported war production in the 1940's and then energy & High tech into the 1960's...We have a work force that build a canal in the mid eighteen hundreds...and built the first "electrical" grid in the early nineteen hundereds.... Companies like Moog, Bell, the list goes on and on. The people who were that work force often times went back to earning a living off the land in Upstate New York...OR moved. But they and those like them are still here and more than willing to pick up where their predecessors left off.

And small cottage industries are beginning to emerge. Always Agriculture. And in the mid west Firearms....the AR thing is an industry into itself. (Remington is leaving NYS). Also performance related things from Motorcycles to......chainsaws...:) Also Snowmobiles, Automobiles, even big trucks. And back to the original point, its ironic that the Saw companys from Europe ( And Japanese too) that have moved manufacturing into the Asian infrastructure now have an emerging "Spare Parts" competition from the same places.. things like carburetors, and plastic. Even hard parts. Think their MBA types will be employed to stop that emerging cottage industry? How long will it be before complete designs, new designs hit the market place? Its not like Europe & USA are the ONLY places that have trees to cut AND have innovative people with a manufacturing infrastructure to bring their new ideas to life..:)

And to the original point, I personally don't have a problem with Stihl going where ever they think is best for a given market place to build things, they have been an innovative company from the beginning and I both appreciate and respect that. I had spent time with a few Chinese technical types back in the 1990's, yup mid 1990s. Great people, I enjoyed the time and the people; one of the easiest group to work with I ever experienced in the 20 years in that industry. It doesn't surprise me at all the rate of growth of their infrastructure. Any more than it will surprise me when others experience the same and bring business opportunities there. And here we are....
 
Full Chisel said:
The Chinese Stihls are junk, plain and simple. And they are going to tarnish the brand's image over time because they are low quality and riddled with problems...oftentimes straight from the factory. Stihl is trying to compete with the market share of cheap box store brands while riding the coattails of their namesake. If the S/N starts with an 8, just say no.
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I suspect you are confusing the Chinese made knock-offs (unlicensed copies) of Stihl models with the actual Stihl saws that at least are assembled there, possibly only for the "local" Asian market. Maybe the cheapest models will be at least assembled there for all markets?

At this point I don't know to which extent the parts are made there - and if they are, for which models.

Anyway, I don't think that this is something to worry about for North American or Western Europe users of "Pro" models, at this point.
 

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