Two-Stroke Oils: All the Same?

[North by Northwest]

MY father in law had a Mach IV. Said it was very powerful and handled like dog ****.
I actually owned a KR Special Yamaha RZ 350 and a Daytona Special RD400 at one time. I was offered a stupid sum of money by a guy who wanted both. The problem is the prices have gotten even more stupid since. I really regret selling them.
It's really a shame that Yamaha or KTM hasn't used some modern low emmissions tech to get two strokes back on the road.

The Mach IV actually handled well compared to the Mach III . Although it weighed 70 lbs (450) more & made 15 more horses (74). Top speed was only 8 mph more (120 mph) & half second quicker through the 1/4 mile (11.4) . My 1972 Z900 in comparison weighed 525 lbs made 103 hp & topped out @ 137 mph. The fastest product bike I ever owned was a 1991 Yamaha V max 1200 . 540 lbs of scary 140+ hp topping out at 160+ mph . The scariest ride hands down 1970 Yamaha RD350 (R5) parallel twin putting out 40 hp weight 347 lbs & top speed 105 mph . It was referred to as the Giant killer having blowing away 750 Honda's 4 strokes @ Daytona in 1969 during speed week . Anyhow way off topic , but good memories none the less !

 

[bwalker]

The Mach IV actually handled well compared to the Mach III . Although it weighed 70 lbs (450) more & made 15 more horses (74). Top speed was only 8 mph more (120 mph) & half second quicker through the 1/4 mile (11.4) . My 1972 Z900 in comparison weighed 525 lbs made 103 hp & topped out @ 137 mph. The fastest product bike I ever owned was a 1991 Yamaha V max 1200 . 540 lbs of scary 140+ hp topping out at 160+ mph . The scariest ride hands down 1970 Yamaha RD350 (R5) parallel twin putting out 40 hp weight 347 lbs & top speed 105 mph . It was referred to as the Giant killer having blowing away 750 Honda's 4 strokes @ Daytona in 1969 during speed week . Anyhow way off topic , but good memories none the less !

My RD400 Daytona was pretty sedate as it was completely stock including the OEM tires when I bought it. Only 5000 miles on the clock. I changed the tires and put another 1000 on it before I sold.
The Rz350 was a completely different beast. It had Eric Gorr worked over cylinders and heads and rare Toomey pipes. I also belive it had different cams on the servo actuated power valves. That thing hauled the mail until aerodynamics caught up with it at speeds over 100mph.

 

[North by Northwest]

The stuff I have and the stuff Home depot still sells is still the old formula...if there is an old formula. I have my doubts.

Yeah mine is the older all black jug . It was a Ester base or at least a ester adder stock in thought . My only reservation was the ester or naptha potentially causing oxidation during prolonged storage . The RXL is not a daily driver even in the winter months . You have any reservations with the Armor product within an older liquid cooled 120 + hp triple , that is more or less a shelf queen ?

 

[bwalker]

Certainly nothing wrong with that.

I will say this. Red Armour leaves more residual oil on internal parts than any oil I have ever seen and I have seen quit a few.

 

[North by Northwest]

My RD400 Daytona was pretty sedate as it was completely stock including the OEM tires when I bought it. Only 5000 miles on the clock. I changed the tires and put another 1000 on it before I sold.
The Rz350 was a completely different beast. It had Eric Gorr worked over cylinders and heads and rare Toomey pipes. I also belive it had different cams on the servo actuated power valves. That thing hauled the mail until aerodynamics caught up with it at speeds over 100mph.

Yeah my 1970 R5 was the predecessor of the RZ . It was scary at 100 mph . with its stock "friction" steering head damper . I went with dual hydraulic dampers & Vance Hines triple chromed tuned expansion chambers . It was putting out over 54 hp after new reeds & mild porting was done . Still a twitchy ride , with explosive acceleration , very similar to the later Kawasaki S2 350 triple 45 hp & top speed of 105 mph within overall performance !

 

[North by Northwest]

I will say this. Red Armour leaves more residual oil on internal parts than any oil I have ever seen and I have seen quit a few.
View attachment 1029333

So corrosion , during prolonged storage should not become a factor with a intended 40 : 1 Premix ratio in this snowmobile application in your consideration ?

 

[North by Northwest]

MY father in law had a Mach IV. Said it was very powerful and handled like dog ****.
I actually owned a KR Special Yamaha RZ 350 and a Daytona Special RD400 at one time. I was offered a stupid sum of money by a guy who wanted both. The problem is the prices have gotten even more stupid since. I really regret selling them.
It's really a shame that Yamaha or KTM hasn't used some modern low emmissions tech to get two strokes back on the road.

Yeah , I miss all my 2T bikes , unfortunate can't turn back the clock & prices are stupid , to even consider as you say purchasing one now !

 

[bwalker]

So corrosion , during prolonged storage should not become a factor with a intended 40 : 1 Premix ratio in this snowmobile application in your consideration ?

I dont known that as I won't store anything long term with ester based oils.

 

[North by Northwest]

So Echo Power Blend and Red Armor are both semi-synthetics with fuel stabilizers and FD rated.... what the heck is supposed to be the difference?
Maybe I'll just stick with Power Blend...

I have experience with Powerblend in a Echo 590 Timber Wolf model for 3 yrs . Very good results . The Red Armor is a learning experience for me . Taking the advice of the forum experienced oil guru's accordingly & a little research myself !

 

[bwalker]

Yeah mine is the older all black jug . It was a Ester base or at least a ester adder stock in thought . My only reservation was the ester or naptha potentially causing oxidation during prolonged storage . The RXL is not a daily driver even in the winter months . You have any reservations with the Armor product within an older liquid cooled 120 + hp triple , that is more or less a shelf queen ?

"Naptha" is a pretty generic term and it's found in almost all two cycle oils. Some times it's called kerosene or stoddard solvent on an MSDS, but what it really is, is a solvent based on a hydrocarbon slightly heavier than gasoline range material and slightly lighter than kerosene. The best oils will use a diluent that won't effect octane and will be at the low end of the above described range. The cheaper ones will use straight up stoddard solvent AKA mineral spirits which will lower octane and will cause deposits. It's sometimes apparent which route an oil company takes in this regard based on the flash point. Lower is better.
If I had to bet I would say the old and new stuff both contain ester. Esters are polar in nature and I believe that's why red Armour clings so well. Although it's better than any ester based oil I have seen in that regard.
I would also say that a CAS number on the old MSDS was not listed for the ester component. This means it wasn't toxic and as such didn't need to be listed in the first place.

 

[North by Northwest]

I dont known that as I won't store anything long term with ester based oils.

Yeah , that was my assumption also , thanks for the confirmation !

 

[North by Northwest]

"Naptha" is a pretty generic term and it's found in almost all two cycle oils. Some times it's called kerosene or stoddard solvent on an MSDS, but what it really is, is a solvent based on a hydrocarbon slightly heavier than gasoline range material and slightly lighter than kerosene. The best oils will use a diluent that won't effect octane and will be at the low end of the above described range. The cheaper ones will use straight up stoddard solvent AKA mineral spirits which will lower octane snd will cause deposits. It's sometimes apparent which route an oil company takes in this regard based on the flash point. Lower is better.

Yep , that's my understanding also , especially within lowering the octane value & potential coinciding lower operating temperatures & deposit formation realities also . I will have to give it some more thought . If it was the former air cooled Liberty engine configuration rather than the newer Fugi liquid version , it would be a slam dunk brother . Thanks again for the input !

 

[Husky77]

The Mach IV actually handled well compared to the Mach III . Although it weighed 70 lbs (450) more & made 15 more horses (74). Top speed was only 8 mph more (120 mph) & half second quicker through the 1/4 mile (11.4) . My 1972 Z900 in comparison weighed 525 lbs made 103 hp & topped out @ 137 mph. The fastest product bike I ever owned was a 1991 Yamaha V max 1200 . 540 lbs of scary 140+ hp topping out at 160+ mph . The scariest ride hands down 1970 Yamaha RD350 (R5) parallel twin putting out 40 hp weight 347 lbs & top speed 105 mph . It was referred to as the Giant killer having blowing away 750 Honda's 4 strokes @ Daytona in 1969 during speed week . Anyhow way off topic , but good memories none the less !

My regret is selling my Suzuki t500r to buy a house back in the 70's. My friend had a kawasaki 500 triple that was fast but mine would out handle it and steady as a rock while his was like a snake. The Suzuki was faster than 750 Norton commando and 650 bonavile, I used to beat them on the road. Later I raced a 350 Yamaha it was air cooled just before they brought out the TZ350. I would beat them off the line and be in the first 3 or 4 into the first Corner then they would come flying past but that air cooled was so reliable and a missile to ride, biggest regret was selling that it would be worth a fortune now. Times change, these days I cant ride but had good times. All were run on Castrol R then and smell was great, it was 16:1 that I do remember. Then they started developing new oils and the rest is history as they say.

 

[bwalker]

Yep , that's my understanding also , especially within lowering the octane value & potential coinciding lower operating temperatures & deposit formation realities also . Thanks again for the input !

Honda HP2 uses cumene as a diluent. Cumene is a high octane stream.
Back in the day before aromatics where frowned upon Toluene and Xylene were both used and they are also high octane streams.

 

[North by Northwest]

Honda HP2 uses cumene as a diluent. Cumene is a high octane stream.
Back in the day before aromatics where frowned upon Toluene and Xylene were both used and they are also high octane streams.

Yes , I recall the T & X components , Cumene is a coal tar byproduct ( polyaromatic hydro carbon ) also , with trace amount of benzene components used to elevate the octane levels , with high solvency value ..correct ?

 

[North by Northwest]

My regret is selling my Suzuki t500r to buy a house back in the 70's. My friend had a kawasaki 500 triple that was fast but mine would out handle it and steady as a rock while his was like a snake. The Suzuki was faster than 750 Norton commando and 650 bonavile, I used to beat them on the road. Later I raced a 350 Yamaha it was air cooled just before they brought out the TZ350. I would beat them off the line and be in the first 3 or 4 into the first Corner then they would come flying past but that air cooled was so reliable and a missile to ride, biggest regret was selling that it would be worth a fortune now. Times change, these days I cant ride but had good times. All were run on Castrol R then and smell was great, it was 16:1 that I do remember. Then they started developing new oils and the rest is history as they say.

Wow , The Suzuki 500 Titan was a rocket for a 500 twin , remember a buddies 1972 model . I ran Castrol R also or Bardah Injector in my 2T triples . Yeah , the 500r would out perform or handle either of the British twins . I preferred the BSA 's performance over Triump . I briefly owned a 1970 750 Combat Commando , it was the finest handling parrallel 4 stroke twin in my opinion ever , with mucho torgue ! Yep history , thanks for the memories , I had forgotten the Titan .

 

[bwalker]

Yes , I recall the T & X components , Cumene is a coal tar byproduct ( polyaromatic hydro carbon ) also , with trace amount of benzene components used to elevate the octane levels , with high solvency value ..correct ?

You can make it in a refinery as well and without benzene in it. Refiners go to great lengths to remove benzene these days.

 

[bwalker]

You can make it in a refinery as well and without benzene in it. Refiners go to great lengths to remove benzene these days.

I guess that's technically not correct as cumene has a benzene ring structure like toluene. It however is not a known carcinogen like benzene.
Its often blended into the motor gas pool when chemical feed stocks are prices low, which hasn't occurred lately.

 

[North by Northwest]

I guess that's technically not correct as cumene has a benzene ring structure like toluene. It however is not a known carcinogen like benzene.
Its often blended into the motor gas pool when chemical feed stocks are prices low, which hasn't occurred lately.

I know what you meant , it is recognized "suspected" carcinagetic agent here in Canada . Isopropylbenzene is it's chemical Trade name & affiliatation as a aromatic hydro carbon. Nothing close to the recognized health hazards of Benzene or even Toluene at this time . I checked my Old Industrial Hygiene OSHA Cat'l its been put together with Toluene @ 50 ppm stel within an establish ambient temperature for a industrial 8 hr Time Weighted Average within a Inhalation / Absorbtion or Injestion inherent hazard . It was more so quite prevealent a Environmental requirement for testing within our Tank Farm Bulk Oil (10 million Imp. Gallon ) Storage Facility . As part of our Certificate of Approval & Due Dilligence within requested ground water testing protocols with the Ministry of the Environment . I believe that protocol identified 250 mg/ litre as the recognized allowable level or concentration( contamination of ground water) at that time. It been over 20 + yrs brother lol.

 

[bwalker]

I know what you meant , it is recognized "suspected" carcinagetic agent here in Canada . Isopropylbenzene is it's chemical affiliatation as a aromatic hydro carbon. Nothing close to the recognized health hazards of Benzene or even Toluene .

Toluene is also known as methyl benzene and it has the same carcinogen rating as cumene. That is to say unknown, but not from not being tested. What that means is if they performed some sort of slanted test and ridiculous exposure levels they might find some correlation in the increased incidence of cancer.
Benzene on the other hand is pretty apparent in its carcinogenic properties.