How do I handle this branch collar?

[JustRandy]

I'd like some opinions on how to handle this branch collar:





Should I cut at an angle in effort to get as much dead wood out as possible or just leave it as is?

I don't want to cut into the living collar tissue because I'm assured the wound won't heal:



Source: https://static.colostate.edu/client-files/csfs/pdfs/613.pdf

 

[Raintree]

It's best to leave it alone. The wound would heal if you flushed it down to the lower collar. I have OCD so if it was my tree, I'd cut it back.

 

[Del_]

Like the information that you posted says 'don't cut any live tissue'.

But it looks like you may be able to remove a little more of the dead stub.

Remember, the cut does not need to be in a perfect plane and the goal is to remove as much of the dead wood (food for insects and fungi) as possible and having the living tissue close over the wound in the shortest time. Decay is going to continue into the tree after close over, but it's the best that you can do.

You did your homework well.

 

[JustRandy]

Like the information that you posted says 'don't cut any live tissue'.

But it looks like you may be able to remove a little more of the dead stub.

Remember, the cut does not need to be in a perfect plane and the goal is to remove as much of the dead wood (food for insects and fungi) as possible and having the living tissue close over the wound in the shortest time. Decay is going to continue into the tree after close over, but it's the best that you can do.

You did your homework well.

Thanks! I stumbled into that after someone suggested cutting into the collar a little to stimulate growth. It didn't sound right so I looked it up.

I guess my concern with removing more wood is not knowing whether the collar will continue to grow over sharp angles and back towards the tree. I'm wondering if its best to give it a "form" to grow over.

And I'm not sure that dead wood will continue to decay because this wood didn't within 14 years: https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/limb-removal.89495/#post-7960637

What do you think?

I don't know what to do but feel like I have plenty of time to decide lol

 

[esean]

That's callous tissue (woundwood) extending over the dead stub, its not the original branch collar. Its common in bonsai work to cut into callous tissue to stimulate growth to more quickly close over an older cut. I don't know if that works consistently in large trees.

 

[JustRandy]

That's callous tissue (woundwood) extending over the dead stub, its not the original branch collar. Its common in bonsai work to cut into callous tissue to stimulate growth to more quickly close over an older cut. I don't know if that works consistently in large trees.

This is interesting because an arborist said the same sorta thing which prompted me to look it up and find that warning from the colorado extension. I asked him where he heard that and he said some old-timers told him.

Two features on the branch, the branch collar and the branch bark ridge,
help identify the proper cut angle. The branch collar is the area where the
annual growth rings of the trunk fold in between the annual growth rings of
the side branch, in a manner similar to shuffling a deck of cards.

Within the branch collar is a narrow cone of cells called the branch defense
zone. These cells activate the growth of woundwood, the callus tissue that
grows over the pruning cut. The branch defense zone also plays an
important role in activating a strong reaction zone inhibiting the spread of
decay organisms into the trunk.

If the branch collar is injured or removed during pruning, the branch
defense zone fails, limiting the growth of woundwood and predisposing the
cut to decay. Thus a primary objective in a correct thinning cut is to
preserve the branch collar intact. https://static.colostate.edu/client-files/csfs/pdfs/613.pdf

What I get from that is the trunk wood that shuffles into the branch wood is the collar. If the branch dies and the branch wood no longer shuffles into the trunk wood, then the wood that would otherwise be the collar attempts to grow unimpeded out onto whatever is left of the dead branch. That would mean the woundwood and collar are the same thing, since the collar is simply growing out because the interleaving of the limb wood isn't there to stop it, presumably until it meets itself and resumes the shuffling with itself after the wound is closed.

I may have to find a similar situation on a tree in the woods, cut it and see what happens.

 

[Seachaser]

OP, this is what happens if you leave it like pictured.

 

[Seachaser]

This is what you’re after. Follow the line of the collar.

 

[JustRandy]

This is what you’re after. Follow the line of the collar.
View attachment 1079409

That pic looks like an injury to the trunk rather than a cut branch.

OP, this is what happens if you leave it like pictured.
View attachment 1079408

And that one looks like something is generally wrong with the tree. The whole branch rotted before healing could make much progress. Looks like it could be an elderly silver maple in the middle of a field with no mulch.

Here is my thread showing a limb I cut in 2009 and what it looks like today https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/limb-removal.89495/

As far as I can tell, the wood in that wound didn't decay. You can see from the pics there was already rotted wood when I made the cut in 2009, but there is no giant rotted out hole there now.

I don't understand why some wood rots and others don't.

If rot is the problem then what about paint?

 

[Seachaser]

It’s a pecan orchard that’s 90+ years old and still bearing. It’s Important that a break or cut doesn’t collect water as it heals. There’s a lot on the internet about pruning pecan trees from experts in the field that’s been doing it for decades.

 

[JustRandy]

It’s a pecan orchard that’s 90+ years old and still bearing. It’s Important that a break or cut doesn’t collect water as it heals. There’s a lot on the internet about pruning pecan trees from experts in the field that’s been doing it for decades.

I didn't realize pecans had such shaggy bark but I guess they do. Here's one of mine:



My problem is I can't tell what is collar and what is limb wood.

Whatever it is, it's growing over top of the bark of the limb:







If it's growing over top of the limb bark then it has to be collar, right? So do I cut that off?

 

[thenne1713]

I didn't realize pecans had such shaggy bark but I guess they do. Here's one of mine:

View attachment 1079858

My problem is I can't tell what is collar and what is limb wood.

Whatever it is, it's growing over top of the bark of the limb:

View attachment 1079861

View attachment 1079862

View attachment 1079863

If it's growing over top of the limb bark then it has to be collar, right? So do I cut that off?

I RECOMMEND plumb vertical cut, trying to leave collar and remove rot, (attempting) no tilt that will later rot and cup out and hold water for further rot. IF rot still exists AFTER VERTICAL CUT , make a single cut in center, down thru bark to center of rot cup, so that ANY water will DRAIN, attempt rot removal and then FILL WITH SPRAY FOAM TO DEFLECT FUTURE WATER COLLECTION? I like spray foam, cannot hurt future saw/ pruning, and can add 5-10-yrs to life of tree by reducing future rot. Good Luck.

 

[JustRandy]

I RECOMMEND plumb vertical cut, trying to leave collar and remove rot, (attempting) no tilt that will later rot and cup out and hold water for further rot. IF rot still exists AFTER VERTICAL CUT , make a single cut in center, down thru bark to center of rot cup, so that ANY water will DRAIN, attempt rot removal and then FILL WITH SPRAY FOAM TO DEFLECT FUTURE WATER COLLECTION? I like spray foam, cannot hurt future saw/ pruning, and can add 5-10-yrs to life of tree by reducing future rot. Good Luck.

I'm not sure I understand how to do the cuts you're recommending.

What about putting a roof over it?

I talked to the only ISA certified master arborist in my area and he said to take a hammer and chisel and chisel out some dead wood so that the woundwood has less distance to cover. Other than that he said leave it alone.

I told him some people said if I leave it alone it will rot out leaving a big hole and he said "yeah, old timers used to fill that hole with concrete but that didn't work out too well." I didn't think to ask him about expanding foam.

The only way I can think to keep water out without filling the hole is a roof.

 

[thenne1713]

Tree will eventually get carpenter ants that remove the rot, but I think the spray foam is best= deflect the rain= reduce future rot RATE, and fill the hole to also deter critters/ insects; concrete does not stay tight and water resistant and not easy to add/repair later, PLUS creates later problems for trying to saw/trim=, very unfriendly to saws; foam does not have that issue, and easy to renew or add to in a few years, or even annually; foam overfill has no issues other than visual, and can be spray painted black if you dislike the yellow color. There are also black spray foams, but I cannot point you to a source..

 

[JustRandy]

Tree will eventually get carpenter ants that remove the rot, but I think the spray foam is best= deflect the rain= reduce future rot RATE, and fill the hole to also deter critters/ insects; concrete does not stay tight and water resistant and not easy to add/repair later, PLUS creates later problems for trying to saw/trim=, very unfriendly to saws; foam does not have that issue, and easy to renew or add to in a few years, or even annually; foam overfill has no issues other than visual, and can be spray painted black if you dislike the yellow color. There are also black spray foams, bit I cannot point you to a source..

I agree expanding foam seems like a good idea, but my only worry is it will trap moisture like paint or silicone. Are you sure it's not better to be open to the air? And keep the water out with a small roof?

I just happened to be reading the Ohio Extension last night and it said:

"There are several ways that callus formation rates can be enhanced, or at least not inhibited. First, it is essential to avoid limiting oxygen availability to the wounded tissues. Oxygen is necessary for the proper healing process to take place. It thus follows that painting a wound with any kind of material that interferes or impedes oxygen access will delay or even prevent wound closure by callus formation. Thus wound painting is no longer recommended, with one exception: in areas where oak wilt disease occurs, wound paints may be useful in preventing insect spread of the oak wilt fungal pathogen. " https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/HYG-3311-09

So I'm thinking saturating the dead wood with spray paint might be a good idea because it doesn't encapsulate the wood like latex. I've always had good luck spray painting wounds with cheap black walmart spray paint.

I hit a loblolly with a tire and knocked off a big chunk of bark. I painted it and it regrew the bark in a few years. Another time I rubbed the bark off a dogwood winching out an apple stump. I spray painted it and it regrew the bark. And countless other times with no ill effects.

Seems like the paint soaks into the wood and prevents rot without smothering the wood.

Smothering the wood is my only worry with expanding foam. Otherwise it seems like a great idea. What do you think?

 

[thenne1713]

I am on about year five on foam treated rot in 75yo dogwood TRUNK and HAPPY so far; started that after finding top rot/ canoeing dugout on huge 75yo OAK limb/s (oak removed 4yrs ago). OAK finding was that 3" limb ON VERY TOP of 40ft limb, very near trunk had been trimmed/removed, and later rotted from that cut, AND ROT WENT both INTO the length of limb, but also back into the trunk. THIS ROT, all being on top made the rot 100% unseen from the ground, but also NOT mentioned by annual arborist visits. The 40-ft limb (x24-in dia) gently split at the trunk connection and gently laid down in a light rain, leaving slight roof scratches and car scratches to my neighbors car. Very well cudda been deadly or very damaging.

(text removed for brevity)

So I'm thinking saturating the dead wood with spray paint might be a good idea because it doesn't encapsulate the wood like latex. I've always had good luck spray painting wounds with cheap black walmart spray paint.

I hit a loblolly with a tire and knocked off a big chunk of bark. I painted it and it regrew the bark in a few years. Another time I rubbed the bark off a dogwood winching out an apple stump. I spray painted it and it regrew the bark. And countless other times with no ill effects.

Seems like the paint soaks into the wood and prevents rot without smothering the wood.

Smothering the wood is my only worry with expanding foam. Otherwise it seems like a great idea. What do you think?

I agree on paint for fresh or dry cuts. Tapes, even saran wrap are used for splicing hybrid trees to control moisture/ insects and mechanical attachment ; bark is the natural protector against most, except many beetles, and their favorite home is below bark, but NOT deep into sap wood, and yet still manage to kill the tree. The FOAM is more to FILL the rot void and prevent the cup or gallons of water that rot to hollow. The OAK ended up having only 2-4-inch thick wood around 90% perimeter below that limb, and a HUGE hollow way, way, way beyond foam bandaid at about 3-6-feet above ground, but tree was almost 6-foot diameter. Surprised a 30-40mph wind had not snapped it off before?

 

[JustRandy]

I am on about year five on foam treated rot in 75yo dogwood TRUNK and HAPPY so far;

Cool this is getting interesting. How do you know what's going on at the bottom of the foam? Can you tell if there is mold between the foam and the wood deep down in? Maybe you could dig it out for an inspection and refill it?

started that after finding top rot/ canoeing dugout on huge 75yo OAK limb/s (oak removed 4yrs ago). OAK finding was that 3" limb ON VERY TOP of 40ft limb, very near trunk had been trimmed/removed, and later rotted from that cut, AND ROT WENT both INTO the length of limb, but also back into the trunk.

I just had an arborist cut off a 2-3 inch sucker growing straight up on an oak limb like you're describing. Holy crap. That limb is 40 feet up. I can't get up there for routine inspections. And I can't see it with binoculars because it's on top of the limb. What should I do?

THIS ROT, all being on top made the rot 100% unseen from the ground, but also NOT mentioned by annual arborist visits. The 40-ft limb (x24-in dia) gently split at the trunk connection and gently laid down in a light rain, leaving slight roof scratches and car scratches to my neighbors car. Very well cudda been deadly or very damaging.

I had about that same sorta thing happen a few months ago. There was a big limb sticking out over the house about as long as you're describing. It was alive last year, but didn't come back after the winter. I was wondering how I was going to remove the limb without hitting the house. Well one day I came out and saw it laying on the ground, in pieces, after what I thought was a light rain. No damage to anything so I don't know how it came down. I already cut it up so I can't inspect, but I'd be willing to bet it's exactly what you're describing.

It was an interior limb growing in the shade so I figured it would die eventually, but was surprised how fast it came down.

I agree on paint for fresh or dry cuts. Tapes, even saran wrap are used for splicing hybrid trees to control moisture/ insects and mechanical attachment ;

I've used electrical tape to fix small broken trees or branches. But that's not a sealant or rot preventative really. It doesn't cut off oxygen, it just holds the tree up.

bark is the natural protector against most, except many beetles, and their favorite home is below bark, but NOT deep into sap wood, and yet still manage to kill the tree.

I saw a documentary on the pine borer vs the lodgepole pine. They said it was a battle between the tree's sap production ability vs the beetle's ability to swim against the flow. They showed the beetle trying to get in the hole against the tide of sap.

When the trees get weak due to overcrowding or they exhaust the soil of nutrients, they can't beat the beetles. So the beetles kill the trees and fires reduce them to fertilizer and a new crop of pines grow. They said it's a symbiotic relationship where neither the tree nor the beetle could exist without the other.

So I guess it's not really about the bark or any barriers preventing the beetles, but the health of the tree that matters. I'm kinda carrying that philosophy over to the rot: if the tree is healthy it should outgrow the rot. Maybe not a branch in the shade, but the whole tree should be ok.

The FOAM is more to FILL the rot void and prevent the cup or gallons of water that rot to hollow. The OAK ended up having only 2-4-inch thick wood around 90% perimeter below that limb, and a HUGE hollow way, way, way beyond foam bandaid at about 3-6-feet above ground, but tree was almost 6-foot diameter.

So it had foam and still rotted? I'm confused.

Surprised a 30-40mph wind had not snapped it off before?

Me too with my limb. It survived high winds not long before a light rain brought it down. Weird. In certain conditions oak wood rots amazingly fast. Other times it seems to petrify. I don't know why.

 

[thenne1713]

<<it had foam and still rotted? I'm confused.>> NO, the Dogwood TRUNK had endured rot for years from previous large limbs and split trunk issues; had watched some for 20-30yrs expecting full death the following year, but came back year after year. This one the rot HOLLOW was FILLED with foam. So far 4+ years later.

 

[JustRandy]

<<it had foam and still rotted? I'm confused.>> NO, the Dogwood TRUNK had endured rot for years from previous large limbs and split trunk issues; had watched some for 20-30yrs expecting full death the following year, but came back year after year. This one the rot HOLLOW was FILLED with foam. So far 4+ years later.

The oak limb didn't have foam?

You said "The OAK ended up having only 2-4-inch thick wood around 90% perimeter below that limb, and a HUGE hollow way, way, way beyond foam bandaid" So I'm confused. Is "foam bandaid" different from expanding foam?

My oak limb is the same as your oak limb so I'm curious about it.

 

[thenne1713]

No, same thing= expanding foam, "bandaid" just meaning an aid to healing or reducing FUTURE rot (not a cure for existing rot)... MY limb led me to find the rot hollow trunk and led me to take the tree down... LATER storms I slept much better and now have grass like I NEVER had before