6 cable maple

[murphy4trees]

Here is a job from last summer... Norway Maple
This tree was ready to fall apart ... Once I saw how bad the cracks were, I dropped everything and started the job in less than an hour after bidding...

Tree was important to the homeowner and the property. I feel confident that it will be good indefinitely, certainly 15 years. I went overkill with the cables just to make sure. The last pic shows the cables... hard to see all six even with good resolution. They are HIGH! They may not be visible after the resize. I mostly used throgh bolts, though there is one or two J-lags up there.

Hadn't been touched in years.. I took a lot of weight out... A LOT! and the tree still looks full...

The homeowmer originally wanted to install through rods, based on the suggestion of another comapny, then she changed her mind. I was not looking forward to doing that part of the job. Rods were never put in and the cracks have not changed since summer. In thinking about it, I AM pretty sure they are stable. The tree has three leads, with three cabled leads, the trunks remain stable... they can't twist.. But with two cabled leads the trunks can still twist in the wind and continue to rip apart...

It's no 15K cable job, but worth hearing your comments on.

 

[treeslayer]

dan, you should be out working. not goofing off online. (like me, watching it rain)

 

[toddstreeservic]

15K? thats $15,000?

 

[corndogg]

That's what most Norway Maples end up looking like around here, crap. She's in rough shape that's for sure. Most would have cut it down. If it wasn't near any buildings nice job getting some work out of it. You can cut it down later. It's amazing it was still standing. Wouldn't have taken much to bring it down by the look of it. Did or have you used "rig guy" stuff before?

 

[toddstreeservic]

Did you climb it like that or did you use a bucket?

 

[tree MDS]

I'll bet that thing still goes down before 15 years is up. Maybe like a chain reaction, with one cable snapping lead first, then the next, and so on.

Thing should've just come down imho.

 

[Dadatwins]

Why no rods? I would think closing the gap with rods would at least give the tree a chance to grow over the split/s. Leaving them open might accelerate the decay that is already in there? Tree still has natural shape and the splits are typical of the species. You probably bought it some time, but how much can't be sure.

 

[treeseer]

Why no rods? I would think closing the gap with rods would at least give the tree a chance to grow over the split/s. Leaving them open might accelerate the decay that is already in there? Tree still has natural shape and the splits are typical of the species.

Nice work Dan. Yes bracing would be a good idea--got a 5' bit? 2 rods would comply w ANSI I think, and stop the twisting.

It's hard to understand the theories that it will still fall apart and is too high risk to be near a target. What is the basis for such thinking?
Steel is strong.

 

[murphy4trees]

Guy,
One of the points I was making is that the cables are triangulated... therefore leads cannot physically twist... think about the geometry... So what good would the rods do? Would they be able to pull the leads together enough to allow the tree to grow over the crack? I seriously doubt it.. And even if it did in who knows how many years, would that allow the tree to improve comaprtmentalization as Dada suggests?
NO WAY...
Leads can't twist.. cracks are stabalized... Cables are doubled and very high, holes are straight.. No way will that tree fail...

I think the important lesson here is that when cables are triangulated, the leads can't twist, and therefore the cracks are stabalized.. A nice piece of info to file in your memory bank, even if you only need to use a couple times in a career..

The more I think about this tree the better I feel about the job..

 

[randyg]

Guy,
One of the points I was making is that the cables are triangulated... therefore leads cannot physically twist... think about the geometry... So what good would the rods do? Would they be able to pull the leads together enough to allow the tree to grow over the crack? I seriously doubt it.. And even if it did in who knows how many years, would that allow the tree to improve comaprtmentalization as Dada suggests?
NO WAY...
Leads can't twist.. cracks are stabalized... Cables are doubled and very high, holes are straight.. No way will that tree fail...

I think the important lesson here is that when cables are triangulated, the leads can't twist, and therefore the cracks are stabalized.. A nice piece of info to file in your memory bank, even if you only need to use a couple times in a career..

The more I think about this tree the better I feel about the job..

Cables are doubled? Sure would like to see a pic of that.

Stop by that tree on a VERY windy day, and carefully put a finger or two in a crack and note the movement. I agree that tree is very stable, but you can stop that movement you detected in the cracks on that windy day with through bolts. Even with bolts, not sure if the rot going on inside that trunk will not cause a hazardous situation on down the road.


Lets hear it for RIGGUY aka WIRE STOP. "Cables are doubled"???

 

[jomoco]

That's a pretty nasty crack Murph.

Like a few others have mentioned, rodding seems like a good idea to me too.

With a crack that nasty, I would have put 4-6 rods in sets of two, side by side about a foot apart width wise, and two or three feet apart vertically, using either 5/8ths or 3/4 inch galvinized rod.

The cabling you did is almost impossible to see in your pics Murph.

American Arborists Supply is where I got my extra long drill bits custom made. But powering a four foot long 3/4 inch drill bit is not feasible with a little two stroke drill motor. To push that size drill bit through hard or soft wood requires a large 3/4 electric drill motor, and lots of in and out to clear the sawdust from the hole.

I installed some huge four foot long 3/4 inch rods in a very large cork oak splitting at it's base in Lajolla about 15 years ago. 6 rods in sets of two, every two feet of the 8 foot crack. It was Ray Kroc's daughter's house.

Rodding and cabling saved that giant cork oak, and to my knowledge it is still standing today.

Good work Murph, try and sell them on rodding it properly next year.

jomoco

 

[tomtrees58]

yep that tree needs rod work tom trees

 

[murphy4trees]

It is my undersatanding that merely going back and forth will not open those cracks up.. The only thing that will open them up is twisting of the leads.. with the cables triangulated the leads cannot twist.

Job was done 6/30/08... there are three cracks total.. as of 11/12/08, when the pics were taken the cracks had not opened any further.. I would have to call that stabalized... We've had a few wind storms since then..

I think the greater point that can be made from this discussion is that there are certain practices in arboriculture that are so ingrained in the profession that they go unquestioned... ie.. big crack needs rod... when a bit of reason and common sense would lead anyone with an open mind to do otherwise... I can think of a few examples...

To the extent that this thread can act as anectdotal evidence, I'll see about posting pics of those cracks from time to time over the next few years.. We;ll see if they open or not and what kind of decay forms etc..

 

[jomoco]

It is my undersatanding that merely going back and forth will not open those cracks up.. The only thing that will open them up is twisting of the leads.. with the cables triangulated the leads cannot twist.

Job was done 6/30/08... there are three cracks total.. as of 11/12/08, when the pics were taken the cracks had not opened any further.. I would have to call that stabalized... We've had a few wind storms since then..

I think the greater point that can be made from this discussion is that there are certain practices in arboriculture that are so ingrained in the profession that they go unquestioned... ie.. big crack needs rod... when a bit of reason and common sense would lead anyone with an open mind to do otherwise... I can think of a few examples...

To the extent that this thread can act as anectdotal evidence, I'll see about posting pics of those cracks from time to time over the next few years.. We;ll see if they open or not and what kind of decay forms etc..

Respectfully Murph, the basic point you are neglecting is that the crack is a fault that used to provide structural integrity for the tree at that location in the tree at it's base.

What you have done, and done well I assume, is compensate for that lower structural fault from a new remote location high above the lower fault. A transfer of load bearing locales from low to high so to speak.

Restoration of that lower structural integrity via rodding will lessen the dynamic forces being applied above at the new cabling points that are necessarily in much smaller wood, now being subjected to supporting the entire load applied at the lower fault.

Do you follow my logic Murph, please?

jomoco

 

[Wortown Mick]

IMO the rods a good idea.

Even if the cables are triangulated and doubled, redundancy never hurts if its a hazard tree. Plus you can buy a big nifty drill bit, and call the customer all excited about it.

 

[Dadatwins]

Understand triangle cable is very stable. Something else to think about with the open cracks with winter coming do you want them filling with water and freezing? Freezing water will expand causing internal pressure, so the split may expand from the inside. There is a reason ANSI states that rodding is needed in split trees, sure every case is different and very hard to generalize when it comes to tree care. Last thing you want is that tree to fail at those cracks and have some lawyer hold up the ANSI standard and ask where are the rods?

 

[murphy4trees]

Good point Dada... especially since they were included in my proposal and never got installed.... I don't see the freeze thaw cycle being an issue as I doubt they are holding any pooling water... Then of course there is the bit, drill and generator that I'd have to buy for the job... I was going to just give it to a sub.. I had to offer her the rods to get the job, and really thought the tree might not make it through the next day or two.. The tree needed cables immediately and the rods could be installed later.. That was my thinkning at the time.. I climbed it, though made sure the leads were roped together before anything.. I forget how I set that up..