A bit of experimentation pays off

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On the Cedar in Northeast Iowa
I’ve been playin’ around with my stovace (ya’ know, the EPA stove I converted into a furnace) because there was a couple of things I wasn’t happy with.

First, that clear ceramic front allowed a lot, a ton of radiant heat to escape the firebox into the basement… which is OK when we’re down there, but most of the time it’s not needed. I figured if I could somehow redirect that heat back into the firebox it could be used to heat the air flowing through the plenum instead. Aluminum, which reflects 100% of radiant heat, seemed like the answer. I picked up a thin sheet of aluminum from the hardware store, cut it to size, bent the sides over to rest on the door frame keeping it about a three-quarter inch from the ceramic, and made a couple “hooks” from aluminum strap so it hangs on the door. It’s light weight, easily removable with a couple fingers and doesn’t interfere with the operation of the door. By leaving the top and bottom open (about a half to three-quarter inch) it allows for some air convection so things don’t “overheat”. I can now place my hand a mere inch from the aluminum reflector and not feel any heat.
Three things resulted from this… The air coming from the heat vents upstairs gets “hot” a lot faster. The air from the heat vents remains hotter, longer. Redirecting the heat back into the firebox makes a lot hotter fire, which has allowed me to turn the combustion air intake “setting” way, way down… resulting in longer, yet still hotter, burns.

Second, it just seemed to me that way too much heat was escaping through the flue. I know these “new-fangled” EPA stoves aren’t supposed to use a flue damper, but being “old-school” I installed one anyway… just in case. My brick chimney runs up through the center of the house, always warm it sucks like an industrial vacuum… I figured it was supplying to much “suck”. I open the door of the firebox while the fire was burning and slowly began to close the flue damper until I saw the tiniest bit of smoke escape, then moved flue damper back open a bit. I now have the damper set where it’s still possible to open the door without smoke escaping, yet I’ve reduced the amount of heat escaping through the flue… it’s about half-way closed.

I’m still getting secondary combustion ignition and… holy crap does she get hot now, the outside of steel plenum gets hot enough to burn ya’ ASAP. That’s with the combustion air intake on it’s lowest “normal range setting”. I’m thinkin’ for overnight burns I’ll be able to set it on the absolute minimum, still have a “hot” fire, and get heat all night.

I use the gas furnace blower to move air through the wood furnace plenum, into the gas furnace plenum, and on to the duct work. It initially starts on low speed when the outside of the stack reaches 120[sup]o[/sup], and when the air in the gas furnace plenum reaches 95[sup]o[/sup] the blower kicks up one speed. As the “stovace” cools and the air in the gas furnace plenum drops below 95[sup]o[/sup] the blower reverts back to low speed until the outside of the stack drops below 100[sup]o[/sup], causing the blower to shut down completely. If at any time the gas furnace needs to run, the wood furnace controls are 100% over-ridden. I’ve set the gas furnace to fire if house temps drop below 60[sup]o[/sup]… I doubt it will ever run unless were gone for a couple days (and then I turn the thermostat way, way down anyway).

I’ll keep y’all updated as the weather gets colder and I keep playin’ around with it more.
 
Yeah... I wish I would have taken the time to install a copper HW coil inside the plenum when I built it. The gas water heater sits just a couple of feet behind the furnace; it was massively short-sighted of me not to. It could still be done, but what a huge PITA it would be now... maybe someday (like so many other things).
 
NICE! It sure is gratifying when a little "engineering" pays off! :msp_thumbsup: BTW, if I understand the directions correctly, the "hotrod" type DHW coils sound pretty easy to install, just a hole to cut in the plenum, slide it in, zip a couple self tappers in. The plumbing looks more complicated than anything...
 
I'm pretty sure that a plenum won't get anywhere near hot enough to heat any real hot water, it may make it luke warm but that's about it. Air to water transfer is not good. The hot rod is made to go in the water jacket of a hot water furnace.
 
I agree with ya' dave_dj1.
I was thinking of dissembling the plenum (that's the PITA I was speaking of) and mounting a copper coil, inside the plenum, in direct contact with the firebox. I would think copper should readily pull the heat off the steel firebox if in direct contact. (shrug)
 
Never had one, (yet) so I can't say how well they work, but yeah, that's basically what the directions that I looked at said, mount the Hotrod right next to the top of the firebox. I used the word plenum because that is the way you referred to it WS. Not really a standard plenum on your "stovace" if I remember the pics right. Gotta get pretty stinkin hot in there! (especially after your latest mod) Even if a Hotrod was mounted in a standard wood furnace plenum, I would think it would still do a nice job of preheating the cold water on the way to the existing DHWH, never tried it, maybe I'm full of it. If you're planning on making your own coil with direct contact, well, yup, I gotta agree too, prolly make more hot water than with just hot air contact.
 
Got any pics? I don't think I saw your other thread on this.
 
As I wrote in another thread, I installed a damper on our wood burning insert to see if we could slow the heat loss too. Haven't tried it yet, but looking forward to the test runs. I'm going to get two temp gauges to monitor the ranges just to be safe. Put one on the insert, and the other on the flue. In addition, I'll be installing another CO2 senser in the house downstairs, as well as increasing the smoke detectors.

Making hot water seems like a worthwhile project, however Our insert isn't strategically located for that. It's unfortunate too. the last job I did, I gleaned several heat exchangers from. They were on a refrigeration system where a water tower was in use, and each unit had an individual water jacketed heat heat exchanger. now they'll probably sit in storage until technological advances render them obsolete, and the only practical use will be for a nostalgic demonstration for school kids when I'm in my 90's

I know these “new-fangled” EPA stoves aren’t supposed to use a flue damper, but being “old-school” I installed one anyway… just in case.

I don't think they design to the two story house application. They'd have to design each unit as one or the other, or just designate certain models as for longer chimneys. They going to the easiest and largest market though
 
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I agree with not putting the coil in the plenum, no real efficient air to water gain made there, and hard to clean. Only restricting your airflow like that. If you can get get it drawing heat off that whistler pipe or adjacent to the firebox sandwiched between the firebox and a reflective sheet like you described would go. From doing it ten years, I'd look for some storage capacity in that DWH loop. Just a tip here... I think a double wall door you could fab for that would do great. Water pumps thru the door heater hose send and return.
 
My thoughts were to install the copper coil in direct contact with the back of firebox, inside the plenum.
Connect the coil to "Tee" fittings at the pressure relief and drain valve fittings on the water heater.
This would allow both the pressure relief and drain valves to remain functional.
The water would circulate through the coil by thermal convection... a totally passive system, no pumps or whatnot.
Cool(er) water would enter the coil from the lower drain valve fitting, become heated and rise to the pressure relief fitting.
The cold water supply and hot water lines would remain untouched, and the gas burner could still be switched on if hot water demand requires it, or the furnace isn't being used (like during summer).
Basically, my water heater would become the insulated "holding tank" for water heated by the wood furnace, and the furnace would constantly be maintaining water temperature via thermal convection.
It would probably be a good idea to install a couple of gate and drain valves in the lines to/from the coil so it be closed and drained during the off season.

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Another, and possibly better option would be to use a second water heater as storage tank only (no gas hook-up) to feed the gas water heater.
That way I would double my hot water capacity and the gas heater would be fed with hot water (eliminating the burner from kicking in every time hot water was used).
This way the burner could be kept "live" on the gas heater, but would only be used to maintain water temperature, not to heat cold water.
Chances are good it would near never kick in unless we didn't use any hot water for 15 hours or so (yeah right, like that ever happens).

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I had the same idea but havent tried it this year. Good Job! You beat me to it. Glad to hear it worked well.

Another idea that I have done to my stove is on Ebay i bought 1/4" Ceramic insulation rated at 2300 degrees. Its called Koawool.

I took my fire brick out and bent the tabs that hold the fire brick , bent them out a hair bit.

I put the insulation back behind the brick and under the bottom bricks.

These stoves are design so most of the heat comes out the top of the stove and the front of the stove anyways.

What this did for me was allow me to turn the stove down to a lower setting and keep my secondaries flames up in the a going at the new lower setting.

I also have a baffle board inside my stove as it has the burn tubes not a baffle up top. I plan on trying to put another layer of insulation on top of the baffles but I want to put a piece of aluminum inbetween the insulation and the ceramic baffle board to reflect heat back towards the fire.

Your right in that most of the heat is radiant heat which reflective material will reflect it back into the fire.
 
I'm actually thinking along different lines.
I'm seriously considering two modifications...
  1. Remove the firebrick from the bottom of the box and build a grate instead. With the fire burning directly on the brick, and the air flowing over the top, very little heat is realized from a bed of coals. Putting the fire on a grate will allow air to get under the coals, keeping them much hotter... i.e. longer heating time.
  2. Put the secondary air supply (the baffle air) on a separate control lever so it can be completely shut-down after the initial burn... no need for that air once the fire has thoroughly charred the fuel supply (no smoke), it just serves to cool things and push more heat out the flue.

Anyway, seriously considering... but ain't made a hard decision yet.
 
I'm actually thinking along different lines.
I'm seriously considering two modifications...
  1. Remove the firebrick from the bottom of the box and build a grate instead. With the fire burning directly on the brick, and the air flowing over the top, very little heat is realized from a bed of coals. Putting the fire on a grate will allow air to get under the coals, keeping them much hotter... i.e. longer heating time.
  2. Put the secondary air supply (the baffle air) on a separate control lever so it can be completely shut-down after the initial burn... no need for that air once the fire has thoroughly charred the fuel supply (no smoke), it just serves to cool things and push more heat out the flue.

Anyway, seriously considering... but ain't made a hard decision yet.

You may want to consider this:

I just removed all the bricks from my insert for a thorough cleaning, and noticed the bottom of the insert had actually warped a bit over the years. And that's with a buffer of brick
 
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