Aftermarket Cylinder... good and bad... the Truth!

[PogoInTheWoods]

I know that's not what you wanted to hear Pog....
I saw that Greg posted something about his products... GREAT. Were getting somewhere... at least two of us are listening!

Actually Randy, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks to both you and Gregg for taking the time to offer some insight from your respective positions. I just wish either one of you would have had a 361BB kit available when I was shopping for one! And wouldn't ya know it, I just ran across a nice OEM top end locally for sixty bux. May return the BB kit after all since I haven't committed it to the saw yet. But as mentioned previously, it didn't sound like the particular vendor was going to make any noise with his supplier about the quality, probably knowing what it was to begin with.

I was just hoping for at least a B+ AM kit for the money since I know they DO actually exist. I'd just never bought one quite this nasty before and was surprised at how raggedy it was. Still am.

 

[DSS]

he's more convienent, i don't need a stump with him.

I'm gonna remember that

 

[wyk]

It was the neighbour's dog. Honest.

Just so long as the peanut butter stays in the jar...

[video=youtube;9aNq8qBXWPM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aNq8qBXWPM[/video]

 

[watsonr]

Actually Randy, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks to both you and Gregg for taking the time to offer some insight from your respective positions. I just wish either one of you would have had a 361BB kit available when I was shopping for one! And wouldn't ya know it, I just ran across a nice OEM top end locally for sixty bux. May return the BB kit after all since I haven't committed it to the saw yet. But as mentioned previously, it didn't sound like the particular vendor was going to make any noise with his supplier about the quality, probably knowing what it was to begin with.

I was just hoping for at least a B+ AM kit for the money since I know they DO actually exist. I'd just never bought one quite this nasty before and was surprised at how raggedy it was. Still am.

I may have a solution for you SOON!!! Tecomec cylinders are considered to be as good or better than Meteor's from what I've read?

 

[roostersgt]

I will try to address this in order so it is easier for you to follow.

Thanks bunches. I guess I've not clearly understood your criticisms. Break out the popcorn and beer for this response. Against my better judgement, I felt a strong need to respond. Silly me.

Yes, you have posted this several times. Say I need a cylinder for an 066, I just checked eBay because you claim there are new OEM cylinder and piston kits for around $150 to be easily found. Care to guess how many are on eBay, right now? Zero. Not a single new OEM P/C listed at any price. If I need my saw to cut wood, how long should I keep hoping someone lists one on eBay before I decide maybe they aren't as easy to find as you claim?

Unsure if your question was simply rhetorical, or not, but, there is now a "good" used 066/660 piston and cylinder listed as "Buy it now" for less than $150. I'm certain if you add a set of $11 Caber rings from the Greek guy, it'll easily best any new AM kit you can purchase for the same money, and be far more reliable. Big saw parts like that don't come cheap and are never readily available, but I've proved my point, and within a day.

Stihl MS660 Magnum Chainsaw Cylinder Piston 066 | eBay

I'm not sure what you know, your posts seem to contradict each other. Earlier you didn't have any answers as to why things happened and you were leaving it up to other people to figure it out.

Thought I already explained this. I don't care why an AM cylinder doesn't produce the same performance. I'm an end-user. I expect "bolt-on" performance when it's promised.

You stated that you have used AM parts and they were lower performing, yet you also say that you cannot be bothered to figure out why. How are you determining that the original parts need replaced if your can't be bothered to find out why the parts aren't working?

I've not run across a single case of a cylinder failure being the cause of a saws demise in more than 40+ rebuilds. Cylinders are usually destroyed as a result of a "lean" condition, bearing failure, or stuff being sucked into the intake side (dirty filter). I've only replaced cylinders if they could not be cleaned up, had deep gouges / grooves, or I wanted to add CC's to a smaller saw in the same saw class.

I stated I believed it was due to lower squish/porting/compression etc... Am I supposed to try to figure out why my saw doesn't rev as quick, or cut as quickly after using the AM kit? I'm not an engineer and I don't build "hot saws" or ported saws. I simply rebuild factory saws to as close as factory as I can come. My experience has been that the saws I've rebuilt using AM cylinders have been slower in trigger response and slower in the wood when cutting, no matter how they're tuned. Every single time without fail. I've used NWP, Hutzl, Mako and a couple of "no brand" Chicom kits. They all proved lethargic compared to "good" used OEM cylinders with AM pistons and Caber rings, even though I replaced ALL of the rings on every single kit I've ever used with Cabers.

This thread is about a sponsor trying to sell parts and looking for constructive criticism, your input, so far, has been to tell people not to buy his parts without giving any reason other than you perceived them to perform at a lower level then the OEM. I have not seen where you gave any evidence to back this up, did I miss it somewhere?

I get it. I'm not trying to sell anyone ANYTHING. I have used AM parts and am sharing my experience, along with some suggestions. That's what was asked for in this thread, input from past users of AM cylinders. So far, I'm more in favor of using OEM, be it new or used, period.

Why is hard for you to be nice? Just because someone disagrees with you and asks you questions is no reason to be anything but nice. I'm sorry that you feel that anyone who doesn't blanketly accept what you say as the gospel is fighting with you.

You're not asking questions in the usual manner. You're more accusatory and doubtful, for unknown reasons. Again, I'm not selling anything here, only giving my learned opinion regarding the cost benefit of AM kits. I don't own stock in Stihl and don't sell saws or parts on Ebay, or anywhere else. I'm simply a hobbyist builder who has spent money on many kits, which I deem to be inferior, cost-wise, and performance-wise to OEM, be it new or used.

I would suggest that unless you have something to add other than "Don't buy aftermarket parts" you should probably focus on a different thread. The repetition of your mantra doesn't seem to be helping the discussion and you don't seem willing to add anything constructive.

To the contrary. I believe I have added constructive criticism and a valid / informative alternative viewpoint to this thread. I'm willing to bet most builders/saw enthusiasts who subscribe to this site just want to learn to rebuild their saws as cheaply and reliably as possible, with the fewest numbers of problems possible, to OEM specs.

 

[8433jeff]

To the contrary. I believe I have added constructive criticism and a valid / informative alternative viewpoint to this thread. I'm willing to bet most builders/saw enthusiasts who subscribe to this site just want to learn to rebuild their saws as cheaply and reliably as possible, with the fewest numbers of problems possible, to OEM specs.

Well, teacherman, thanks for the lesson.

The cylinder on eBay you posted in your diatribe looks like it has been rode hard and put away wet. Try this one. Cylinder Piston Assy Stihl Chainsaw 066 MS660 54mm Defective | eBay

Or find a keeper from these three. 3 Stihl 066 MS660 064 Cylinder Original Stihl No Piston Rebuild Factory | eBay

Keep stuffing things like that with your Golf pistons. Many here would tell you they would be the last thing they put in a cylinder. Many of the same would tell you the cylinders are junk as well.

Worthy of the same money as the OP's kits? Worthy of the same time, treasure, and effort to install one of his kits? Even at a cheaper price? Not in my opinion. OEM specs may condemn the one you posted, as well as the ones I found, to the scrap pile. OEM performance from them? Please don't insult our intelligence by insisting its only to be found from a combination of OEM junk and cheap pistons and Caber rings.

So start a thread or two about your big bolt on performance from stuff that was more than likely taken off to be replaced with what the OP is talking about. I and others would welcome them. I'll even buy one, if you are willing to stand behind it, like the OP is doing.

Whatever you believe, you are convinced of it. If its right by you, then continue to believe that. To continue to disparage the parts the OP is posting about is wrong, however, without trying them. It doesn't matter how many other combinations you've tried, you haven't shown anybody anything except your bias, which you have said is based on feeling, not fact. A video, or some pics, would go a long way to support said beliefs, and you have shown none of either.

But its the internets, so continue to post here if you feel better. If you still wonder why some here are questioning your motives and/or methods, then continue to provide comic relief.
Complain about the laughter if you want. I'll be ignoring it from here on out.

 

[dozerdan]

I may have a solution for you SOON!!! Tecomec cylinders are considered to be as good or better than Meteor's from what I've read?

Tecomec cylinders are by far the nicest AM cylinder that I have ever had in my hands and their pistons are of equal quality. I have used the Tecomec line for about 10 years and I have never seen a bad one. That's why when I placed the order with you I specified Tecomec cylinder along with the Meteor pistons. I would much rather give you my money then Tilton.

Later
Dan

 

[watsonr]

Tecomec cylinders are by far the nicest AM cylinder that I have ever had in my hands and their pistons are of equal quality. I have used the Tecomec line for about 10 years and I have never seen a bad one. That's why when I placed the order with you I specified Tecomec cylinder along with the Meteor pistons. I would much rather give you my money then Tilton.

Later
Dan

My paperwork to become an authorized Tecomec dealer was completed yesterday. I should have something very soon!

 

[cowroy]

roostersgt, I am not arguing for or against you here, but I believe the cylinder you posted has had some grinding done to the lower transfers.

 

[watsonr]

Morning... anybody for coffee?

 

[ZeroJunk]

Longevity and reliability aside, I think most of the performance difference between OEM and aftermarket is in people's heads.

 

[thinkrtinker]

Morning... anybody for coffee?

I admire your ability to keep marching in the parade of this thread. Cool heads normally win the race

 

[Mastermind]

roostersgt, I am not arguing for or against you here, but I believe the cylinder you posted has had some grinding done to the lower transfers.

Without a doubt. Good eye Justin.

To roostersgt (I don't know your name) Up until a few months ago I felt exactly the same way you do. Every aftermarket cylinder I had tried to use was lacking in some way. Even though I do port most every cylinder that crosses my bench I still wasn't happy with either the piston, the missing bore at the very top of the jug, the plating, etc. Sometimes I've even seen them out of round.

I was very skeptical of the Meteor kits when I was contacted by watsonr (Randy) and even told him of my doubts. What he told me next and the fact that I've seen he was a man of his word is what compelled me to give them another look. I also spoke with Matt (a member in OZ) and he shared with me that he had found that by refusing to accept low quality kits he was now getting very nice ones.....he also sent me a kit that was very, very high in quality. So they are out there......just not every buyer is getting the upper levels of AM kit.

Randy said that they had been in contact with some of the aftermarket suppliers and was having a dialog with them to help improve their products. He said that many of the issues I mentioned were being addressed and that the product was better. After seeing and using a few I'm convinced that what he said is true......they are much improved. Even Brad admitted that after much kicking and screaming. oke:

Does that mean that you or I can now go on ebay and buy any aftermarket kit and expect to receive a top performing kit.......unfortunately no. Matt and Randy both are doing the leg work to find these high quality kits and Matt has even shared his findings with us so that Randy can get these kits too. What some of us seem to be missing here is that these guys are beating the bushes to weed through the crap so that the end user (you and I) can get a top quality AM kit every time with a warranty.

Lets not let this turn into a battle.......instead let's attempt to be open-minded and at the least be grateful for the efforts of these guys.

 

[cowroy]

I just went back and looked at the comparison Blsnelling did with the 046 comparing stock to untouched Meteor and the difference was .41 seconds. Now I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I am worried about when I cut wood is less than a half a second per cut. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck :msp_rolleyes:. It would be awesome if they would come out with kits for the Poulan 3700, 4000, 5200 series saws.

 

[DSS]

Longevity and reliability aside, I think most of the performance difference between OEM and aftermarket is in people's heads.

Unless you remove the ego, there isn't a lot of room in some of these guys heads.

 

[thomas1]

I will try to address this in order so it is easier for you to follow.

Thanks bunches. I guess I've not clearly understood your criticisms. Break out the popcorn and beer for this response. Against my better judgement, I felt a strong need to respond. Silly me.

I can see that didn't work. Maybe the breadcrumbs weren't big enough? Let's try again, but I think we all know you still aren't going to find the path.

Yes, you have posted this several times. Say I need a cylinder for an 066, I just checked eBay because you claim there are new OEM cylinder and piston kits for around $150 to be easily found. Care to guess how many are on eBay, right now? Zero. Not a single new OEM P/C listed at any price. If I need my saw to cut wood, how long should I keep hoping someone lists one on eBay before I decide maybe they aren't as easy to find as you claim?

Unsure if your question was simply rhetorical, or not, but, there is now a "good" used 066/660 piston and cylinder listed as "Buy it now" for less than $150. I'm certain if you add a set of $11 Caber rings from the Greek guy, it'll easily best any new AM kit you can purchase for the same money, and be far more reliable. Big saw parts like that don't come cheap and are never readily available, but I've proved my point, and within a day.

Stihl MS660 Magnum Chainsaw Cylinder Piston 066 | eBay

Way to go, you found a questionable used cylinder for $150. That's weird, because just a few posts ago you said that new OEM p/c sets could be had for that price, easily. Remember? I do.

Also, I stated that new Stihl OEM cylinder and piston kits (in the box) are easily found on Ebay for around $150, the same price as the AM kits. Why would one use AM if one could use OEM for the same price, or within $10-$20 difference?

Where are they? I only asked you to find one example to support your argument. You keep spouting off about how cheap you can build with new OEM parts, but you can't find the parts? Doesn't seem nearly as easy as you claim, does it? Again, how many days should someone monitor eBay hoping a new p/c set is going to show up at the right time?

Just for kicks I checked completed listings for a new, OEM p/c for an 066. Imagine my surprise when there was only one. I almost fell over from the shock at the price as well, since I had been told by a very reliable source that they could be had for $150 all day long.

Stihl Chainsaw Cylinder and Piston Kit 066 660 | eBay

I figured that must have been an anomaly, so I checked for 372 p/c. Guess what, none of those to be had for under $250 either. Wonder of wonders.

I'm not sure what you know, your posts seem to contradict each other. Earlier you didn't have any answers as to why things happened and you were leaving it up to other people to figure it out.#

Thought I already explained this. I don't care why an AM cylinder doesn't produce the same performance. I'm an end-user. I expect "bolt-on" performance when it's promised.#

You stated that you have used AM parts and they were lower performing, yet you also say that you cannot be bothered to figure out why. How are you determining that the original parts need replaced if your can't be bothered to find out why the parts aren't working?

I've not run across a single case of a cylinder failure being the cause of a saws demise in more than 40+ rebuilds. Cylinders are usually destroyed as a result of a "lean" condition, bearing failure, or stuff being sucked into the intake side (dirty filter). I've only replaced cylinders if they could not be cleaned up, had deep gouges / grooves, or I wanted to add CC's to a smaller saw in the same saw class.

So, your theory is that cylinders are never the reason a saw quits working, but people should spend twice as much money on an OEM cylinder, even though cylinders are never the cause of problems, in your vast, 40 saw experience? Why spend the extra money? You won't spend it on a piston, why a cylinder?

I stated I believed it was due to lower squish/porting/compression etc... Am I supposed to try to figure out why my saw doesn't rev as quick, or cut as quickly after using the AM kit? I'm not an engineer and I don't build "hot saws" or ported saws. I simply rebuild factory saws to as close as factory as I can come. My experience has been that the saws I've rebuilt using AM cylinders have been slower in trigger response and slower in the wood when cutting, no matter how they're tuned. Every single time without fail. I've used NWP, Hutzl, Mako and a couple of "no brand" Chicom kits. They all proved lethargic compared to "good" used OEM cylinders with AM pistons and Caber rings, even though I replaced ALL of the rings on every single kit I've ever used with Cabers.

No, what you posted was that you had no idea why they didn't perform to your standards and couldn't be bothered to figure out why. Remember? I do.

I'm not really sure why the performance is always lower with the kit cylinders. Ports? Squish? Compression? I don't know. I don't trust the readings on my compression testers either, and I don't waste time measuring other things I don't have the knowledge or skills to change.

This thread is about a sponsor trying to sell parts and looking for constructive criticism, your input, so far, has been to tell people not to buy his parts without giving any reason other than you perceived them to perform at a lower level then the OEM. I have not seen where you gave any evidence to back this up, did I miss it somewhere?

I get it. I'm not trying to sell anyone ANYTHING. I have used AM parts and am sharing my experience, along with some suggestions. That's what was asked for in this thread, input from past users of AM cylinders. So far, I'm more in favor of using OEM, be it new or used, period.

What is you input, other than to say "don't buy them" and then offer no explanation of why other than you perceived them to be lower performance? Do you have any measurable explanation of how or why they are lower performing? You already stated you can't take an accurate compression reading, you won't measure anything and you don't care about finding out why things aren't to your standard.

Why is hard for you to be nice? Just because someone disagrees with you and asks you questions is no reason to be anything but nice. I'm sorry that you feel that anyone who doesn't blanketly accept what you say as the gospel is fighting with you.#

You're not asking questions in the usual manner. You're more accusatory and doubtful, for unknown reasons. Again, I'm not selling anything here, only giving my learned opinion regarding the cost benefit of AM kits. I don't own stock in Stihl and don't sell saws or parts on Ebay, or anywhere else. I'm simply a hobbyist builder who has spent money on many kits, which I deem to be inferior, cost-wise, and performance-wise to OEM, be it new or used.#

I am doubtful because you keep repeating the same thing, even when shown evidence to the contrary. Just because you believe it doesn't make it true in reality.

I would suggest that unless you have something to add other than "Don't buy aftermarket parts" you should probably focus on a different thread. The repetition of your mantra doesn't seem to be helping the discussion and you don't seem willing to add anything constructive.

To the contrary. I believe I have added constructive criticism and a valid / informative alternative viewpoint to this thread. I'm willing to bet most builders/saw enthusiasts who subscribe to this site just want to learn to rebuild their saws as cheaply and reliably as possible, with the fewest numbers of problems possible, to OEM specs.

Again, just because you believe it doesn't make it true in reality.

oop:

 

[thomas1]

Without a doubt. Good eye Justin.

To roostersgt (I don't know your name) Up until a few months ago I felt exactly the same way you do. Every aftermarket cylinder I had tried to use was lacking in some way. Even though I do port most every cylinder that crosses my bench I still wasn't happy with either the piston, the missing bore at the very top of the jug, the plating, etc. Sometimes I've even seen them out of round.

I was very skeptical of the Meteor kits when I was contacted by watsonr (Randy) and even told him of my doubts. What he told me next and the fact that I've seen he was a man of his word is what compelled me to give them another look. I also spoke with Matt (a member in OZ) and he shared with me that he had found that by refusing to accept low quality kits he was now getting very nice ones.....he also sent me a kit that was very, very high in quality. So they are out there......just not every buyer is getting the upper levels of AM kit.

Randy said that they had been in contact with some of the aftermarket suppliers and was having a dialog with them to help improve their products. He said that many of the issues I mentioned were being addressed and that the product was better. After seeing and using a few I'm convinced that what he said is true......they are much improved. Even Brad admitted that after much kicking and screaming. oke:

Does that mean that you or I can now go on ebay and buy any aftermarket kit and expect to receive a top performing kit.......unfortunately no. Matt and Randy both are doing the leg work to find these high quality kits and Matt has even shared his findings with us so that Randy can get these kits too. What some of us seem to be missing here is that these guys are beating the bushes to weed through the crap so that the end user (you and I) can get a top quality AM kit every time with a warranty.

Lets not let this turn into a battle.......instead let's attempt to be open-minded and at the least be grateful for the efforts of these guys.

tl;dr

 

[Mastermind]

tl;dr

I don't believe you. :msp_tongue:

 

[DSS]

I can see that didn't work. Maybe the breadcrumbs weren't big enough? Let's try again, but I think we all know you still aren't going to find the path.











Way to go, you found a questionable used cylinder for $150. That's weird, because just a few posts ago you said that new OEM p/c sets could be had for that price, easily. Remember? I do.







Where are they? I only asked you to find one example to support your argument. You keep spouting off about how cheap you can build with new OEM parts, but you can't find the parts? Doesn't seem nearly as easy as you claim, does it? Again, how many days should someone monitor eBay hoping a new p/c set is going to show up at the right time?



Just for kicks I checked completed listings for a new, OEM p/c for an 066. Imagine my surprise when there was only one. I almost fell over from the shock at the price as well, since I had been told by a very reliable source that they could be had for $150 all day long.



Stihl Chainsaw Cylinder and Piston Kit 066 660 | eBay



I figured that must have been an anomaly, so I checked for 372 p/c. Guess what, none of those to be had for under $250 either. Wonder of wonders.













So, your theory is that cylinders are never the reason a saw quits working, but people should spend twice as much money on an OEM cylinder, even though cylinders are never the cause of problems, in your vast, 40 saw experience? Why spend the extra money? You won't spend it on a piston, why a cylinder?







No, what you posted was that you had no idea why they didn't perform to your standards and couldn't be bothered to figure out why. Remember? I do.















What is you input, other than to say "don't buy them" and then offer no explanation of why other than you perceived them to be lower performance? Do you have any measurable explanation of how or why they are lower performing? You already stated you can't take an accurate compression reading, you won't measure anything and you don't care about finding out why things aren't to your standard.









I am doubtful because you keep repeating the same thing, even when shown evidence to the contrary. Just because you believe it doesn't make it true in reality.









Again, just because you believe it doesn't make it true in reality.



oop:

Can we go over this one more time? I'm just not sure exactly what your point is.

Also, tl;dr. GTFO.

 

[thomas1]

Can we go over this one more time? I'm just not sure exactly what your point is.

Also, tl;dr. GTFO.

I don't know if I have the energy. Hell, even you get it and you're Canadian.