Alternative Energy / Alternative Heat

[urhstry]

We have all been hearing/reading about alternative energy plans and products and it got me to thinnking. Why isn't heating with a woodstove or OWB classified as alternative heating? Isn't it an alternative to the use of oil, gas, and resources that are limited and can run out? Last I checked, wood is a renewable resource. Shouldn't the government be putting these on the tax incentive plans for saving $$$? Somebody enlighten me.

 

[The Lorax]

When the Govt starts talking about alternatives it means alternatives that can be taxed and regulated.
See, things like solar and wind power need to be manufactured and transported, and sold all of which are taxable.
Having you buy a saw and go off cutting your own wood means that the govts tax income from you is minimal.
Maybe the truck you have burns some petrol/diesel and the tyres and other consumables you use along with the saw consumables may provide some small amount of tax but nowhere near as much as the govt would like.

 

[woodbooga]

When the Govt starts talking about alternatives it means alternatives that can be taxed and regulated.
See, things like solar and wind power need to be manufactured and transported, and sold all of which are taxable.
Having you buy a saw and go off cutting your own wood means that the govts tax income from you is minimal.
Maybe the truck you have burns some petrol/diesel and the tyres and other consumables you use along with the saw consumables may provide some small amount of tax but nowhere near as much as the govt would like.

+1 on that. I'd prefer that my fuel of choice stay off the Fed's radar screen. Last thing I want is for a bunch of Revenueing G-Men cruisin my street counting chimneys and f'ing with my tax bill.:angry2: :angry2: :angry2:

 

[saw mutt]

OH great, just what we need, a "firewood tax assessor".

If he's anything like the local property tax assessor, we are all screwed.

 

[johnha]

My firewood collecting is already taxed. They tax the gas for my truck, saw, and logsplitter. The oil too. I have been taxed when I purchased said truck, saws, and splitter. When I buy chains, mauls, etc I am taxed.

Taxes taxes taxes. Total cost of government day here in PA was July 21st this year. That means that nearly 7/10ths of the money I earned goes in some way shape or form to support government. I don't need no more stinkin' taxes.

 

[ms310]

We have all been hearing/reading about alternative energy plans and products and it got me to thinnking. Why isn't heating with a woodstove or OWB classified as alternative heating? Isn't it an alternative to the use of oil, gas, and resources that are limited and can run out? Last I checked, wood is a renewable resource. Shouldn't the government be putting these on the tax incentive plans for saving $$$? Somebody enlighten me.

According to my bil he got like 500 off his taxes do to his owb

 

[Butch(OH)]

Wood on the government's list? You must think you live in Wonderland, Alice? Heck no, wood wont make the list! Their Alt fuels program lets them control the dollars, and collect taxes from payrolls and sales of alt fuels. They want us to work at McD second shift and buy fuels instead of cutting wood after work so they get tax money twice. Same with new and "improved" EPA stoves Just saw an article put out by the EPA that the new generation stoves put out just as much pollution as the old ones IN ACTUAL USE (as compared to the laboratory conditions they were tested under). How much tax do they collect from my 25 year old Arrow woodstove? Zilch!. But make it illegal and replaceable with improved EPA stove and looky there, payroll taxes and sales taxes again, Yee haw!!!.
I have said it many times before and say it again, it aint about pollution or energy conservation boys, it's about taxes and self preservation for the government.

 

[Wood Doctor]

The Lorax said, "Having you buy a saw and go off cutting your own wood means that the govt's tax income from you is minimal."
------------------
I wish I could believe that every time I
(1) fill my chain saw with gas (taxed to high heaven)
(2) fill my chain saw with bar and chain oil (ditto)
(3) fill my truck with gas (ditto)
(4) pay taxes on the property my trees are growing on
(5) pay the chimney cleaner's sales tax
(6) fill my logs splitter's engine with gas and oil
(7) buy hydraulic oil for the log splitter
(8) pay the vehicle registration tax on my truck
(9) etc., etc.

The government taxes us to death whenever we heat with wood. The boys in Washington and in the state capitol's feast on us. :censored:

 

[iowawoodcutter]

We have all been hearing/reading about alternative energy plans and products and it got me to thinnking. Why isn't heating with a woodstove or OWB classified as alternative heating? Isn't it an alternative to the use of oil, gas, and resources that are limited and can run out? Last I checked, wood is a renewable resource. Shouldn't the government be putting these on the tax incentive plans for saving $$$? Somebody enlighten me.

I am thankful for that. I want the government involved in my family's life and choices as little as possible. Be careful or cautious of any politician that wants to cut into your lifestyle and tell you how to live. For example, making it illegal to serve or eat transfat (I think it passed in NYC). If I want to clog my arteries, piss off, let me do it, its my choice. It's all socialism, telling you how to live, what to eat, whom you can or can't associate with...I'm done now, sorry.

C

 

[Butch(OH)]

The Lorax said, "Having you buy a saw and go off cutting your own wood means that the govt's tax income from you is minimal."
------------------
I wish I could believe that every time I
(1) fill my chain saw with gas (taxed to high heaven)
(2) fill my chain saw with bar and chain oil (ditto)
(3) fill my truck with gas (ditto)
(4) pay taxes on the property my trees are growing on
(5) pay the chimney cleaner's sales tax
(6) fill my logs splitter's engine with gas and oil
(7) buy hydraulic oil for the log splitter
(8) pay the vehicle registration tax on my truck
(9) etc., etc.

The government taxes us to death whenever we heat with wood. The boys in Washington and in the state capitol's feast on us. :censored:

He said minimal, not non-existant

Why would anyone in thier right mind spend MORE to heat with wood than paying the gas Co to do same?

The land soley for wood? the truck soley for wood? If so you are paying more for heat than you would if you bought gas.

While Ill admit that most spend more than they care to admit to heat with wood I can tell you that I do NOT spend more to heat with wood than same heat with natual gas, therefor I pay less in sales taxes. Plus I do not have a second job for them to tax just so I can pay gas bill.

Myself I figure to have $3000 a year to play with (last heat bill year 2006).

Spend less (I am) and I win,

and they dont like it.


Getting a long ways from Alt fuels here, sorry.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

My firewood collecting is already taxed. They tax the gas for my truck, saw, and logsplitter. The oil too. I have been taxed when I purchased said truck, saws, and splitter. When I buy chains, mauls, etc I am taxed.

Taxes taxes taxes. Total cost of government day here in PA was July 21st this year. That means that nearly 7/10ths of the money I earned goes in some way shape or form to support government. I don't need no more stinkin' taxes.

It's probably worse than that. With our current system(s), there really is no way to assess how much we pay in taxes, but some estimates are in the 80-90% range.

How? Well, every time they tax a business, who pays that? The end user of the product or service.

If we would get rid of the fiction that businesses pay taxes, and make ALL taxes illegal except END USER CONSUMPTION TAX, we'd all see what we are REALLY paying, and there would be a revolt so fast the big government crowd wouldn't know what hit them.

And as long as the tax code is being used to 'stimulate' certain sectors of the economy (read: pay off big campaign contributors) the situation is beneficial to elected officials, and nothing will change.

 

[Wood Doctor]

...Shouldn't the government be putting these on the tax incentive plans for saving $$$? Somebody enlighten me.

Perhaps. But, the first thing we probably would run into is the word, "clean." Wood heaters would start being mandated to specific emmission standards that would ultimately cost a fortune to buy and maintain.

Then there's the matter of supply. If everybody switched from natural gas, electricity, fuel oil, and propane to wood, the renewable resource that we have come to admire and love would shrink to nothing. I imagine less than 5%of all households heat with wood. If 100 million started to do so to capitalize on tax incentives, it would likely be chaos.

 

[urhstry]

What I was really thinking was that you could write off your OWB like you can your solar install, wind generator, etc. They seem to be leading that way but nothing is there yet. I don't want the government in my business either but if they are going to refund some of my $$ back for buying an OWB, I'm all for it.

 

[woodbooga]

What I was really thinking was that you could write off your OWB like you can your solar install, wind generator, etc. They seem to be leading that way but nothing is there yet. I don't want the government in my business either but if they are going to refund some of my $$ back for buying an OWB, I'm all for it.

Faustian bargain. Wouldn't be long, once the IRS saw money going out to you that they'd be scheming ways to alter the tax code to make revenue come back in to their coffers.

 

[Butch(OH)]

I may be all wet but I dont think there is much worry about the masses going to wood heat and thus deforesting the country for two reasons. 1. the cost of processed firewood does not leave much left over to pay for equipment and 2, darned few have the ambition to cut and split the required cords per year. The last time there was a large surge in wood burning, sometime in the 70s during the "energy crisis" the vast bulk of the equipment was on yard sales or rusting in just a couple years. I still have an Arrow woodstove that mom purchasd for pennies on the dollar after the panic (and ambition) was over with.

 

[Wood Doctor]

I'd like to read that article. Got a link?

So would I. Please post a URL. I've always doubted the effectiveness of cat combustors that cost people a bunch of dough to buy and headaches to operate and maintain.

 

[ray benson]

It looks like as of July 2008 the EPA still had a wood stove changeout policy in place. I wasn't aware this even existed.
http://www.epa.gov/woodstoves/changeout.html

 

[Crofter]

"Approximately 10 million wood stoves are currently in use in the United States, and 70 to 80% of them are older, inefficient, conventional stoves that pollute. Because EPA certified wood stoves emit approximately 70% less pollution than older, conventional wood stoves, a successful changeout campaign will reduce local particulate emissions."

The above quote is from the link that Ray posted; I didnt see anything to give the idea that the EPA stoves were producing as much smoke in actual use as the old ones unless someone was trying to burn some of that "water seasoned" wood! I would like to read that article!

 

[Wood Doctor]

"Approximately 10 million wood stoves are currently in use in the United States, and 70 to 80% of them are older, inefficient, conventional stoves that pollute. Because EPA certified wood stoves emit approximately 70% less pollution than older, conventional wood stoves, a successful changeout campaign will reduce local particulate emissions."

The above quote is from the link that Ray posted; I didnt see anything to give the idea that the EPA stoves were producing as much smoke in actual use as the old ones unless someone was trying to burn some of that "water seasoned" wood! I would like to read that article!

I am having a really hard time understanding the total magnitude of wood stove pollution and why any one on earth is even concerned about it. Here's why:

(1) 95% of all the wood burned in the USA per year is burned by forest fires.

(2) That means 5% of all the wood burning is done by USA residents and commercial establishments.

(3) Forest fires are not using any pollution control equipment, such as catalytric combustors, nor are they using high efficiency stoves.

To me, that means residential wood burners like you and me aren't polluting the environment enough for anyone to be concerned about, including the federal government. If a state somehow decides that it has a local problem, let that state deal with it.

 

[Butch(OH)]

I'd like to read that article. Got a link?

I found it by accident when I was searching another subject. Article said that they tested emissions from several "EPA" type stoves ( I think it said two years old) and were very disappointed to find emissions were close to earlier non regulated units. I would assume catalytic units?? I don't know ding about them. Article did emphisze in "actual" conditions so I guess one could assume some non-perfect fuel?

Anyway I do some search'en and will post when I find it.