Aluminum vs. Creosote

[Jakers]

Haha nice! We also took and put snowmobile skis on a toilet and had pot races too...

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im thinkin we had a slightly different kinda pot races. ud be amazed how "fast" you can go on almost flat ground....

 

[mitch95100]

And then from flat ground to riding on a cloud in 5 seconds flat right?

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[Jakers]

And then from flat ground to riding on a cloud in 5 seconds flat right?

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somethin like that... anywho, we got way off topic there. :arg:

 

[mitch95100]

That's called a hijacked thread...

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[mitch95100]

I shall check back with you children in the morning to see how we have progressed with this aluminum delima...

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[SpiralAcacia]

That's it, no more bottled beer for me!

Willing to help - SEND ALL YOUR BOTTLED BEER TO ME

I shall dispose of it respectfully.

SA

 

[Steve NW WI]

Whaddya do iffen your capsize-o-matic is made of fiberglass?

 

[FLHX Storm]

Willing to help - SEND ALL YOUR BOTTLED BEER TO ME

I shall dispose of it respectfully.

SA

Well, I would but I doubt it would make it through customs. They'd drink it all. So I guess I'll have to suffer n drink em all myself. Post haste though!

 

[Marc]

Whaddya do iffen your capsize-o-matic is made of fiberglass?

Marry a woman with good balance, or one who swims well

 

[Bushmans]

When they said aluminum what they meant was an aluminum ladder to get up on yor roof and scrub your chimney!:hmm3grin2orange:

I took some time this morning to do a little research on this subject and was quite surprised to learn what people will burn in their stove/firplace to avoid cleaning their chimney!

One guy said he likes burning cans because he has a very tall chimney and he'll do whatever it takes so he doesn't have to clean the entire length. (glad I don't sleep in this house)

Another burns potato peels. (burning dry potato peels is like burning wrapping paper, a quick temp rise will burn up creosote but also may damage the chimney)

Salt or TSP, one heaping tablespoon per fire (I guess this is one of the main ingredients in the "sweep logs")

One guy said he hadn't cleaned his chimney in 7 years because he uses cans. (I sure hope he at least inspectd it)

The biggest thing I took from reading a bunch of stuff this morning is basically:
The aluminum releases manganese which keeps the creosote from becoming sticky. It stays flaky and then can fall off and down into your fire or elbows, so keep the elbows clean!

There is also the belief that in order to burn the cans your fire must be extremeley hot and it is not the can but the high temps that take care of the creosote. Aluminum melts at 1200.

Cans do nothing for a non-metalllic chimey!

It was some very interesting reading. No one person really came right out and said it doesn't work. Of course there are the nay sayers who are concerned about gas that is emitted while burning and environmental pollution. I also read that while the can is burning it actually consumes gasses.

I may burn a few cans but then again I have a ten cent deposit on mine. I clean my chimney twice a year and being that it is a fireplace and burns hot all the time I don't have much of a problem. I sure as heck wouldn't sleep comfortably knowing I hadn't done my chimney maintenence.

It's all up to the homeowner. People will do what they are gonna do!
Thanks for the topic it was a good little research project!

 

[Marc]

John, I don't think the aluminum burns at all.
I watched the beer can shrinks and vaporizes up with the gases.
And I think the aluminum vapor either coats the flue wall and prevents the carbon molecules from sticking and crystalizing on the flue wall.
I really don't know but it's working so far so I am going to keep on doing it.

Any way you guys should give it a try and get first hand experience. Shouldn't hurt anything.

I don't think the aluminum is vaporizing. Boiling point of aluminum is 4,500°F. Not even if you're running a blast furnace to heat your house would you normally see temperatures that high.

No, it is most likely burning, from what I understand. Aluminum releases a tremendous amount of energy when oxidized, but the mass of aluminum in a single can is so low, it's heat would be quickly distributed. I've never seen any real evidence or chemistry based reasoning that points to this working to reduce creosote, but maybe it's just because no one has given it serious thought. The combustion product of plain aluminum is aluminum oxide (alumina) which is a pretty inert compound and would be a solid in your wood stove anyway, so it's not reacting with the creosote in your stovepipe in any way.

I'm personally of the opinion you're much better off burning your dry, seasoned firewood hot and clean. Creosote means inefficient combustion, which means you're throwing away heat potentional, heat you've worked so hard to harvest, process and season, just so to have a few coals in the morning? I'd say you're better off recycling the cans anyway. Making aluminum from bauxite is a dirty, very energy intensive process so recycling aluminum yields one of the best returns of the commonly recycled materials for that reason.

 

[Dalmatian90]

Marc -- when this thread came up earlier this year with a guy who had great results in his OWB with the cans, I researched a bit and wrote this up:

Aluminum cans are made from an aluminium-manganese alloy. About 1% manganese.

And it's the manganese (specifically I think manganese dioxide, MnO2) that acts as a catalyst lowering the temperature the creosote will burn at to 300ºF.

I still don't know all the chemistry going on, but at least I have a reasonable explanation now I guess the goal being you're burning off just enough of the outer layer of creosote to make a difference, without ever getting enough heat/open flame to light it off and have an uncontrolled chimney fire.

I'm all ears if you're able to either concur or disprove the manganese catalyst hypothesis.

 

[Streblerm]

I'm no chemist but I did see some results from burning cans. I have a roughly 25' stainless chimney and I burn hot fires. The chimney stays clean but the outer ring of my chimney cap gathers a bit of creasote. Since I clean from inside the house the outside of the cap doesn't get cleaned. 6 months of weather tend to do a good job of cleaning the outer ring of the cap, but I hate to look up and see dingleberries on my chimney cap and I always worry that an overfire might ignite it. Since I read the other post about how cans might help reduce creasote I decided to give it a shot. I have noticed that the build up on the cap has diminished significantly since I started. Maybe I just got in to some drier wood and the temp has been lower so maybe I'm burning sustained hotter fires. I don't know. Its fun to watch the cans disappear on a bed of coals so unless someone has evidence that the practice is harmful, I'm a gonna keep doing it.

 

[Streblerm]

That's clouds, not smoke by the way. I don't have any before pictures but take my word for it, it is quite a bit cleaner on the inside of the outer ring of the chimney cap than it was before.

View attachment 271388

 

[Ductape]

Another big positive for beer.

Heck, if it weren't for beer, I'd still be a virgin !

 

[mitch95100]

well were back on track i see.

 

[Iron Head]

I'm no chemist but I did see some results from burning cans. I have a roughly 25' stainless chimney and I burn hot fires. The chimney stays clean but the outer ring of my chimney cap gathers a bit of creasote. Since I clean from inside the house the outside of the cap doesn't get cleaned. 6 months of weather tend to do a good job of cleaning the outer ring of the cap, but I hate to look up and see dingleberries on my chimney cap and I always worry that an overfire might ignite it. Since I read the other post about how cans might help reduce creasote I decided to give it a shot. I have noticed that the build up on the cap has diminished significantly since I started. Maybe I just got in to some drier wood and the temp has been lower so maybe I'm burning sustained hotter fires. I don't know. Its fun to watch the cans disappear on a bed of coals so unless someone has evidence that the practice is harmful, I'm a gonna keep doing it.

Thanks for your contribution and that's how I see it too.

 

[Marc]

Marc -- when this thread came up earlier this year with a guy who had great results in his OWB with the cans, I researched a bit and wrote this up:



I'm all ears if you're able to either concur or disprove the manganese catalyst hypothesis.

It's an interesting explanation, and I too couldn't opine without further research.

I do have a comment regarding its feasibility, outside the chemistry- 1% (by weight, I'm assuming) of a 15 gram aluminum can is just 0.15 grams of manganese. I realize significant quantinties of catalyst (by mass) aren't necesary to affect large masses of reactants, however, geometry and mass flow plays a big role. A catalytic converter (on cars or stoves) utilizes a catalyst coating on a ceramic substrate matrix shape (boxes, honeycombs, whatever) designed to expose a lot of surface area of reactants to the catalyst. In your hypothesis, we have just the opposite. A cylindrical interface for the reactants and catalyst, which is almost the least possible surface area/volume ratio achievable, and a very dilute concentration of catalyst. And not all 0.15 grams of manganese (within the manganese dioxide) would reach the reactants as MnO[SUB]2[/SUB] is solid up to about 1000F, at which point it deomposes into its constituants and would loose its catalyzing property.

I guess the bottom line for me is that there is no substitue for burning clean and regular brushing.

 

[tld400]

I haven't tried the can method yet but I do use powder stuff that works great. As soon as you use it the creo. breaks down and falls back into the stove. I will try a can next and post how it works for me.

 

[Dalmatian90]

It's an interesting explanation, and I too couldn't opine without further research.

I do have a comment regarding its feasibility, outside the chemistry- 1% (by weight, I'm assuming) of a 15 gram aluminum can is just 0.15 grams of manganese. I realize significant quantinties of catalyst (by mass) aren't necesary to affect large masses of reactants, however, geometry and mass flow plays a big role. A catalytic converter (on cars or stoves) utilizes a catalyst coating on a ceramic substrate matrix shape (boxes, honeycombs, whatever) designed to expose a lot of surface area of reactants to the catalyst. In your hypothesis, we have just the opposite. A cylindrical interface for the reactants and catalyst, which is almost the least possible surface area/volume ratio achievable, and a very dilute concentration of catalyst. And not all 0.15 grams of manganese (within the manganese dioxide) would reach the reactants as MnO[SUB]2[/SUB] is solid up to about 1000F, at which point it deomposes into its constituants and would loose its catalyzing property.

I guess the bottom line for me is that there is no substitue for burning clean and regular brushing.

Yep, I'd agree it's a tiny amount and a chimney is certainly not an optimal shape...I guess it's "reasonable" to me only in we know it can't be the aluminum itself doing anything, but aluminum cans contain manganese, and there's commercial chimney cleaning powders that contain manganese so there's at least a starting point that might make sense.