another newbie needs advise from the vets..

[cozmo]

hello, i also just joined the boards today and i was looking for somwe advice on what furnace to buy..i am eyeing up a few models from TSC..
1-clayton 1357
2-" " 1557 and
3-" " 1602...

i have been reading the forums for hours so i will try to give as much info as possible so i can get some good advice from the pros...

my home is a 1500sf "elevated ranch" which means a typical ranch in the front with a full "besement/garage" around back. this is my first winter in the home as i just purchased it back in may. the ceilings in the living area are approx. 7' 6".. it has approx R-19 insulation in the attic, which im going to blow in an additional 10-12 inches to get it to an R-38-40..

the basement/garage ceilings are approx 13 foot high so i will have plenty of room to install ductwork..there is NO registers or ductwork because the main heat scource is electric RTS (residential thermal storage). and the cost is outta this world..

there is no chimmney, i intend on using triple wall through a small roof overhang on my garage..

i tried to upload pics of the intended area but was unsucessful..thank you in advance for any advice your willing to share.. thanks

 

[laynes69]

Out of those furnaces you listed the 1602 would be the best, but far overkill for the home. With only 1500 Sq. Ft look into getting a nice woodstove, or see if the layout will allow it. You will save alot of wood, as well as have plenty of heat during an outage. Choosing a model that EPA certified will give you the best options. Less wood, a cleaner chimney and more BTU's from each load of wood. If you decide to choose a woodfurnace, there are alot of nice high efficiency models on the market. You will pay a little more up front, but they will pay back in the long run.

 

[cozmo]

thank you laynes69, i appreciate your response.. i have looked into some nice wood stoves, the house isnt layed out in a way to be able to maximize the btu's, more specifically-- even distribution..for the $2400.00 i would spend on say a HARMON tlc2000, i'm affraid it would be 100 degrees in the living room and 60 in my daughters room and the spare bedrm..

living in the coal reagion of PA, i'd like to have the choice of burning wood in the fall/spring on those chilly nights, and being able to switch to coal if, one, we get the type of bitter weather we are experiencing now AND two, if i run out of seasoned wood i can switch to coal..

the basement/garage area is HUGE!!! 28x40x 13foot high.that being said..

do you think if i went ahead and bought the 1602 from TSC and put a certain number of vents to the living area, (prolly 7or8) then added a vent at a time into the garage/basement until i got the right balance, to both avoid the "overkill" to the living space and added the benifit of having a heated garage, would it still be too much furnace??

i could always close off some vents to the garage on those single didgit days and open them up on the milder days..

sorry if it seems like i'm overexplaining, i just dont know a whole lot about furnaces' and want to get an adequate system..a little on the warm side is ok with me... thanks again for your reply

can you suggest any epa certified models that you think would get the job done?

 

[laynes69]

If you plan on burning coal, there are no "EPA" units that burn coal. If you are serious about coal, then almost all of the woodfurnaces from usstove are out. They will burn soft coal, but not anthracite without alot of tinkering. As far as the 1602, it might be okay for hard coal, I don't know.

Harmon makes some solid build woodfurnaces that are made to burn hard coal and wood. They won't be as efficient as some of the newer furnaces, but you get the option of burning both fuels. It you choose to burn coal then you will need a 316ti liner or a terra cotta liner to resist the acids in chimney.

Having a woodfurnace in the basement will give you radiant heat from the unit itself, and from the ducting. We have a 1200 sq.ft basement and no heat ducts just the radiant and it stays warm. Each manufacturer will have clearances listed to follow for the ductwork from combustibles. Its not that hard to install ductwork, but get some ideas from some pros on layout. If your heating a basement that size the living space above and a garage, then a woodfurnace would be the way to go.

 

[deerlakejens]

I heat a 3200 sq. ft house with a woodstove in the downstairs in a house that isn't laid out the best for heat distribution. Granted I'm in a milder climate than you but we've had a few weeks with lows in the single digits, highs in the teens and we got along fine. The downstairs is a little warmer than the upstairs but with just a few ceiling fans the heat evens out comfortably. It sure makes for a nice warm upstairs floor.

 

[cozmo]

thanks laynes69, i never even gave the acidity with coal and the ss triple wall a thought, thank you!!

sounds like a furnace is the best option, since its in the basement it has alot on the plus side:
accessability
ease of ash removal
keeping the dirt out of the living area
a more even distirbution of heat vs- woodstove
heated garage for working on cars ect.
warmer floors in living area/no cold drafts from basement

the only downsides i can think of are:
use more wood/coal than a stove
slight inconvience installing all ducts (but once and done!!)
needing electricity/battery backup in outage
probaly need a forced air fan to burn anthercite

if anyone knows of anything else(positives or negatives) through their experiences, please share

thanks again laynes, i'm thinkin the 1602 is my best bet, gunna do some more research

 

[cozmo]

I heat a 3200 sq. ft house with a woodstove in the downstairs in a house that isn't laid out the best for heat distribution. Granted I'm in a milder climate than you but we've had a few weeks with lows in the single digits, highs in the teens and we got along fine. The downstairs is a little warmer than the upstairs but with just a few ceiling fans the heat evens out comfortably. It sure makes for a nice warm upstairs floor.

wow deerlakejens, thats alot of square footage..approx how many cord do you go thru per/yr to heat that much house?

what your saying kinda comfirms my thoughts of putting it in the basement due to the fact that i'm able to run ducts to the first floor and like your place, the warm floors would be my whole living space floor. with the added benifit of having a warm basement to work on projects n stuff.. thank you for your input..if you heat 3200sq ft with a woodstove, you've given me doubts that i need a furnace, mabey a large woodstove wood do..:greenchainsaw:

 

[CrappieKeith]

Out of those furnaces you listed the 1602 would be the best, but far overkill for the home. With only 1500 Sq. Ft look into getting a nice woodstove, or see if the layout will allow it. You will save alot of wood, as well as have plenty of heat during an outage. Choosing a model that EPA certified will give you the best options. Less wood, a cleaner chimney and more BTU's from each load of wood. If you decide to choose a woodfurnace, there are alot of nice high efficiency models on the market. You will pay a little more up front, but they will pay back in the long run.

Layne is correct...yes I agree Layne.
I'd point out that if you are looking for a better more efficient product in a stove which heats a room or two depending on the layout of your home or if a furnace is what you'll want to heat the enitre home ....there are much better options not found at TSC.

For wood/coal I might suggest Firechief,Charmaster,Woodchuck or our furnace the Klondike.

Cozmo,the way you win in this deal is to get a unit that can heat the entire home with burn times that never let the furnace go out. Also one that goes through the least amount of solid fuel helps too.
Not having a liquid fuel bill is the goal.

 

[cozmo]

thanks keith, i will look into the brands that you have mentioned, really appreciate your help...jason

 

[CrappieKeith]

To truely heat your enitre home including bed rooms and back rooms a furnace is the tool.

What to look for....
Weight in the same btu range.The heavier the unit the more steel and brick you'll get.
A way to burn gases off either in a cad or gassier type system.
Thermal mass...how dense and thick are firebrick.
Heat exchanger surface area...the Klondike has 50 s/f for example
Look in owners manuals for draft speeds. The slower the more heat that does not exit the flue.
Thermosatic call for heat.

 

[laynes69]

I will add, a proper firebox for burning hard coal will have sides that are parallel with each other. You don't want sloped sides with a small grate in the base of the furnace. You will not get enough air through the coal bed to accomplish a good hot burn. Having a square firebox with a full set of grates for the bottom will allow for a good burn of anthracite. Hitzer is another name that also jumps out with coal burning. If you are close to a mine or can get hard coal for a good price, even consider a stoker furnace. You then don't have to worry about cutting wood, just load the hopper and set your temp to where you want it. Fully automatic, just empty the ash when needed. I tried both types of coal with the old furnace, and just decided to install a wood only unit. Good coal is too expensive around here, due to transportation costs.

 

[cozmo]

keith, when you say "the same BTU range" i'm assuming you mean the same as the existing furnace...one of my problems is i dont have a furnace to compare and get a good idea of the btu range i would need...because the house had electric thermal storage units in when i bought it..

so i'm kinda in the dark on what an adequate BTU furnace i need. i would like to post some pice of the basement(area i intend to install it in)...but have yet to be able to figure out how to do that..

based on yours and laynes advice, i am 99% sure a furnace will do the best job for me in my situation...now i just need to research the brands you mentioned and try to make an informed decision on which one is the one for me...

laynes, thank you for the info, with the knowledge from you guys, i know i'll end up purchasing the RIGHT furnace to keep us warm.. thanks again

 

[CrappieKeith]

keith, when you say "the same BTU range" i'm assuming you mean the same as the existing furnace...one of my problems is i dont have a furnace to compare and get a good idea of the btu range i would need...because the house had electric thermal storage units in when i bought it..

so i'm kinda in the dark on what an adequate BTU furnace i need. i would like to post some pice of the basement(area i intend to install it in)...but have yet to be able to figure out how to do that..

based on yours and laynes advice, i am 99% sure a furnace will do the best job for me in my situation...now i just need to research the brands you mentioned and try to make an informed decision on which one is the one for me...

laynes, thank you for the info, with the knowledge from you guys, i know i'll end up purchasing the RIGHT furnace to keep us warm.. thanks again

A home typically needs about 35 btu's per s/f here in Mn. Living in other parts of the country where climates are milder you could drop that number a hair.

 

[Marine5068]

Crappy Keith is correct on the statistic for BTU's per sq/ft.
Also one more note.
Again, being from the Architectural and Mechanical career community, I've designed a number of HVAC systems over the years (or redesigned them).
It's not just a matter of putting in some vents in the different rooms to cover your heat input.
The whole system is a design. From the plenum to the main trunk line to the individual diffuser lines to the size of the air returns and placement. Even the size of the furnace blower and also evaporator size(air-con).
You should have a professional design your system as every heated/cooled system is individual and particular to that dwelling and has to be worked out with a fair bit of scientific calculations(physics and advanced geometry).
I know this because that's how we learned to do it in College and that's what's done in the real world.
You'll be glad you went professional when you're done. Trust me. Good luck.
~Stan
/Architectural Engineering
/Mechanical Engineering
/Certified Welder

 

[FarmerGirl]

Me newbie 2 & need advice....

Hi,..I`m new to this forum also & was wondering if anyone here might be able to offer some advice. I live in a very old farm house, in upstate NY, "Adirondacks". with very little insulation & only in a few area`s. It`s a 2 story with boxy rooms & small door ways, not an open floor plan at all..I have a old gravity type of wood furnace in the basement, an "octopus" "heart of the Home" that over the last few years, Is putting off less & less heat. It use to practically run you out of the house, & you`d have to open up a few windows "mainly downstairs" Upstairs only has 2 registers & 2 air grates.. I had a pellet stove installed on the upstairs level, which heats up there nicely, but, Now it seems that the downstairs living area where the kitchen, living room, parlor, dinning room & spare room are have become more drafty and very uncomfortable. I have been trying to save up to insulate with blown in insulation & invest in a new furnace, when my roof started to leak, so there went the money. I was thinking that because of installing the pellet stove upstairs that, maybe this is causing, more of the drafts, because the furnace is drawing more air mainly from this level now??..Is this possible?? My furnace does not have a cold/or clean air return/ or hook up, it just draws air from "where ever" outta the basement, & another thing it doesn't have a damper or (baro damper?). So couldn't this be causing all the heat to be sucked up the chimney??...It also doesn't have a blower, just a fan that runs constantly, continually pushing up heat, or should I say use to push up sufficient heat.
(I "know" it`s been rigged, but we won`t get into that..)
Would adding a way to hook up a cold air return & a damper, help with making the furnace heat better?? at least to get me through this winter..??
Any information or suggestions would be very much appreciated...
I`m tired of listening to & believing in what other`s have told me & done...
that`s why my furnace is the way it is now...
(gull-able) Barbara..

 

[pook]

Hi,..I`m new to this forum also & was wondering if anyone here might be able to offer some advice. I live in a very old farm house, in upstate NY, "Adirondacks". with very little insulation & only in a few area`s. It`s a 2 story with boxy rooms & small door ways, not an open floor plan at all..I have a old gravity type of wood furnace in the basement, an "octopus" "heart of the Home" that over the last few years, Is putting off less & less heat. It use to practically run you out of the house, & you`d have to open up a few windows "mainly downstairs" Upstairs only has 2 registers & 2 air grates.. I had a pellet stove installed on the upstairs level, which heats up there nicely, but, Now it seems that the downstairs living area where the kitchen, living room, parlor, dinning room & spare room are have become more drafty and very uncomfortable. I have been trying to save up to insulate with blown in insulation & invest in a new furnace, when my roof started to leak, so there went the money. I was thinking that because of installing the pellet stove upstairs that, maybe this is causing, more of the drafts, because the furnace is drawing more air mainly from this level now??..Is this possible?? My furnace does not have a cold/or clean air return/ or hook up, it just draws air from "where ever" outta the basement, & another thing it doesn't have a damper or (baro damper?). So couldn't this be causing all the heat to be sucked up the chimney??...It also doesn't have a blower, just a fan that runs constantly, continually pushing up heat, or should I say use to push up sufficient heat.
(I "know" it`s been rigged, but we won`t get into that..)
Would adding a way to hook up a cold air return & a damper, help with making the furnace heat better?? at least to get me through this winter..??
Any information or suggestions would be very much appreciated...
I`m tired of listening to & believing in what other`s have told me & done...
that`s why my furnace is the way it is now...
(gull-able) Barbara..

a cold air return via a duct will pull air from upstairs,thru fan, & blow it back upstairs = ideal setup when ducts are properly sized.
An air passage/hole from the upstairs to cellar is better than no hole especially if the fan is pulling cold air from outdoors & blowing it upstairs where it pressurizes the upstairs & forces warm air out doors. Great for fresh air in house but bad for heating. Try cracking the cellar door little by little until u feel cold air, i think, & this should result in the air passage being the right size so that the fan is sucking down air & not allowing cold air from cellar to get upstairs.
Different size chimnis & configurations affect the draft. A barometric damper stabilizes the draft but allows cold air into the chimni to do so automatically. A key damper blocks the draft but doesnt allow air intake & is manual. A magic Heat [OR SIMILAR] controls the draft as it extracts heat from the fluegas but requires electricity & may be damaged in power outage. CHIMNI SHOULD BE MONITORED FOR CREOSOTE IN ANY CASE & IF NOT DOABLE, THE KEY DAMPER IS THE ANSWER.
Check your furnace for cracks or leaks that may be the cause of its poor performance.
Whats the height & construction of the chimni, indoor & or outdoor? construction of the cellar? Nature of the wood wet or dry?

 

[RVALUE]

Hi,..I`m new to this forum also & was wondering if anyone here might be able to offer some advice. I live in a very old farm house, in upstate NY, "Adirondacks". with very little insulation & only in a few area`s. It`s a 2 story with boxy rooms & small door ways, not an open floor plan at all..I have a old gravity type of wood furnace in the basement, an "octopus" "heart of the Home" that over the last few years, Is putting off less & less heat. It use to practically run you out of the house, & you`d have to open up a few windows "mainly downstairs" Upstairs only has 2 registers & 2 air grates.. I had a pellet stove installed on the upstairs level, which heats up there nicely, but, Now it seems that the downstairs living area where the kitchen, living room, parlor, dinning room & spare room are have become more drafty and very uncomfortable. I have been trying to save up to insulate with blown in insulation & invest in a new furnace, when my roof started to leak, so there went the money. I was thinking that because of installing the pellet stove upstairs that, maybe this is causing, more of the drafts, because the furnace is drawing more air mainly from this level now??..Is this possible?? My furnace does not have a cold/or clean air return/ or hook up, it just draws air from "where ever" outta the basement, & another thing it doesn't have a damper or (baro damper?). So couldn't this be causing all the heat to be sucked up the chimney??...It also doesn't have a blower, just a fan that runs constantly, continually pushing up heat, or should I say use to push up sufficient heat.
(I "know" it`s been rigged, but we won`t get into that..)
Would adding a way to hook up a cold air return & a damper, help with making the furnace heat better?? at least to get me through this winter..??
Any information or suggestions would be very much appreciated...
I`m tired of listening to & believing in what other`s have told me & done...
that`s why my furnace is the way it is now...
(gull-able) Barbara..

If it used to work, find out what changed and fix that. It sounds like a plugged flue to me.

 

[FarmerGirl]

Thank you both for the reply

Outside Chimney is block about 30 ft tall. Full basement 2 and half feet wide stone & boulders, concrete floor was poured after. This house had alot of the enmities added later on.The house is about 150 + yrs old. Wood is a mix of different types, Seasoned (over 2 to 3 years, cut & split), but, some has gotten moisture just recently, from loose tarp..So I stack it down the cellar, & burn it in sections..
So I am definitely going to need a damper, probably manual? because most of the electronics on this furnace have been disabled & disconnected.. Not unless I can get them re-hooked up & providing they work.. Thermostat was disconnected also...Will have these things checked & have everything cleaned out again...especially the Flue & checked for cracks and/or leaks too...
from discussing this with you`s...& re-reading what I posted.."It sounds like I`m heating the house with an "open fire pit". I`ll have to make this due for this winter though, & just keep researching wood furnaces.. My house is a little under 3000 sq ft..
Thank yous very much for the input & feedback, greatly appreciated..
excellent sounding board...really gets you thinking..
Barbara,