back cut

[Cage116]

Ok i hope to draw on the knowledge that you fellows possess to help me solve a little debate goin on between me and a friend of mine who runs a tree business.
Ok here goes, when i got older and started cutting trees as part of my job i had to take certain certifications to be able to fell trees. In the classes it was taught certain felling techniques including when making a back cut that it should be parrallel to the ground. I learned from all my coworkers that this is the proper technique as many of them were loggers and that is how they made their felling cuts. Now growing up i made angled back cuts as that was whay my father was doing. I have since learned that this is not the proper technique. Now thay brings us to today. My good friend who runs his own tree business tells me he makes angled back cuts like my father did. My question is which is the right way to do it:msp_confused:? Angling your back cuts doesnt seem to be too wedge friendly if you know what i mean... I hope you guys can help me out on this one and that i am explaining my question clearly enough.... Thanks in advance....

 

[RandyMac]

Level.

 

[deevo]

Level.

Exactly!

 

[OHWC]

A level back cut is proper. There are several reasons for this all of them coming down to the fact that with an angled cut you have greater risk of loosing the tree and you can not wedge properly. There are a lot of tree service individuals telling you all about felling. Your best bet to learn how to fell is go talk with a professional faller, logger or forest service.

I will cover one of these problems for you in detail here. Wedging. If you make a level cut you can wedge anywhere from the back to an inch or two from the hinge depending on how much lift you need to put the tree into the face. The lift on a level cut will go straight up giving you full advantage of the thickness of your wedge and placement of that wedges proximity to the hinge. If you use a angled cut you lose much of this advantage as the lift is angling out instead of up. What this does is creates more stress on the hinge which can lead to premature breakage. In addition this can lead to loss of proper control of your tree. It also drastically decreases the amount of lift you are achieving with your wedge.

A well versed faller with wedges a falling axe and saw can drop trees into very tight areas as I am sure you have seen.

I find many trees being climbed that do not need to or rope guided instead of wedged properly (very risky shock loading a rope without a wedge backing it up). If you have learned how to fell properly by people who do it for a living then you know how to do it the right way from size up to dropping it right on target.

At the end of the day learning OJT after proper training from a real feller is a must for successful safe felling.

 

[ATH]

I'll just pile another vote on the stack for level.

I see a lot of angled cuts...but anybody who has gone to actual coursework does level. I think that is a good indicator of "grandpa and dad did it that way" vs the "right" way. Not intending to insult your dad...because he has probably just always did what worked. For a lot of guys working around the farm clearing fence rows and cutting firewood all their life, they probably never even thought that there might be a better way (I know that to be true because I talk to those guys all the time...). The same likely applies to many tree companies...

 

[arborjockey]

Xtra 2 cents.....

Angled back cuts put more of a side or sheer load on the hinge. You can snap a stick by side loading it(putting your knee in the middle and prying up with both hands) but you can't pull it apart. If the tree sets back you want it to be pulling up on the hinge wood not side loading it. Same with wedging as stated above. You want to lift the back not push it forward. Just the way i was schooled :redface:

 

[tramp bushler]

Look at my avatar , I'm not standing on a sloping backcut . Flat and level with 1_4" of stump shot . If your swinging a tree with a kerf dutchman I come in level with the swing cut or a schosh low. Especially on steep ground .

 

[TreeSurfer]

and also i may add, the same ones who make the mistake of a severely angled backcut are also the same ones who make HUGE 1/2 diameter notches. i used to make this mistake all the time but now i got in the habbit of no more then 1/3. half the diameter leaves a greater risk of the hinge collapsing when the tree is moving. :msp_scared:

 

[Nailsbeats]

Level.

Looks like Randy is packin' a chew, that's what I like to see.

 

[rtsims]

and also i may add, the same ones who make the mistake of a severely angled backcut are also the same ones who make HUGE 1/2 diameter notches. i used to make this mistake all the time but now i got in the habbit of no more then 1/3. half the diameter leaves a greater risk of the hinge collapsing when the tree is moving. :msp_scared:

Please do explain this collapsing of the hinge theory
opcorn:
No but really.

 

[TreeSurfer]

i meant the hinge breaking early.

 

[VikingDrive]

They wasn't concerned with selling that log. Look whether the top or bottom of a face cut is parallel to the ground and you can tell if the faller was trying to maximize the log or make his work easier at the stump. Keeping the butt square wastes less of the main log. I like a round butt, though too--don't get me wrong.

 

[cnpser]

Please do explain this collapsing of the hinge theory
opcorn:
No but really.

Think of it as snow on the side of a mountain, if what ever is holding it back (in this case the hinge) breaks loose it is going to slide down the hill. Now with the tree it means that it will fall off the stump and more than likely fall backwards and when it does that it can bounce anywhere because the stump will kick the butt of the tree up in the air. Maybe your direction.

With an angled cut you are putting some horizontal pressure on the hinge where with a level cut it is vertical until it starts to drop then it pulls at the hinge fibers.

 

[rtsims]

I understand that, I was referring to the comment about a Hinge cut 1/2 the dia collapsing and causing issues. I was wondering what he ment, I use deep faces whenever I need more hinge wood to steer the tree with precision. More hinge wood equals more control. As far as the sloped back cut goes, I oppose everything about it. I learned from timber fallers early on what was right, what was acceptable, and what was wrong.

 

[beastmaster]

Level, for all the reasons already stated, but I have a question that I'd like to ask. I was taught to always make my back cut a few inches higher then the face cut. But lately I've been hearing its right to make your back cut even with the bottom of the face cut. I was under the impression that little lip from the back cut being higher help prevent the stick from possibly kicking back and acted like a hinge along with the holding wood?

 

[RandyMac]

and also i may add, the same ones who make the mistake of a severely angled backcut are also the same ones who make HUGE 1/2 diameter notches. i used to make this mistake all the time but now i got in the habbit of no more then 1/3. half the diameter leaves a greater risk of the hinge collapsing when the tree is moving. :msp_scared:

Baloney.

 

[tramp bushler]

Yes . It is best to have some stump shot . The term for having your back cut a little higher than the face cut . . If anything , it gives your holding wood a little more strengt . Kind of a no extra work, Siswheel but not as strong . The pic of Randy's is a perfact stump .

I tell guys , make your stumps look like mine do and your timber will lay out like mine does .

 

[Cage116]

A level back cut is proper. There are several reasons for this all of them coming down to the fact that with an angled cut you have greater risk of loosing the tree and you can not wedge properly. There are a lot of tree service individuals telling you all about felling. Your best bet to learn how to fell is go talk with a professional faller, logger or forest service.

I will cover one of these problems for you in detail here. Wedging. If you make a level cut you can wedge anywhere from the back to an inch or two from the hinge depending on how much lift you need to put the tree into the face. The lift on a level cut will go straight up giving you full advantage of the thickness of your wedge and placement of that wedges proximity to the hinge. If you use a angled cut you lose much of this advantage as the lift is angling out instead of up. What this does is creates more stress on the hinge which can lead to premature breakage. In addition this can lead to loss of proper control of your tree. It also drastically decreases the amount of lift you are achieving with your wedge.

A well versed faller with wedges a falling axe and saw can drop trees into very tight areas as I am sure you have seen.

I find many trees being climbed that do not need to or rope guided instead of wedged properly (very risky shock loading a rope without a wedge backing it up). If you have learned how to fell properly by people who do it for a living then you know how to do it the right way from size up to dropping it right on target.

At the end of the day learning OJT after proper training from a real feller is a must for successful safe felling.

Thank you all for your advice on this. I am a big advocate of a level back cut you guys are helping me understand why. Thank you again.

 

[OHWC]

They wasn't concerned with selling that log. Look whether the top or bottom of a face cut is parallel to the ground and you can tell if the faller was trying to maximize the log or make his work easier at the stump. Keeping the butt square wastes less of the main log. I like a round butt, though too--don't get me wrong.

Viking,

This is a myth. The cut does not maximize the log at the butt. Both a conventional and humbolt cut use the same amount of the butt if cut properly. This is because a humbolt requires a higher horizontal cut and the conventional requires a higher angled cut which will measure the same. Really it comes down to style. And in some instances the humbolt is better and others the conventional is better. This is due to the conventional causes the butt to shoot out higher where as the humbolt slips to the ground faster. Depends on the layout and breakage concerns. You will see both cuts being used on felling jobs depending on circumstance. In addition a humbolt will require stump trimming if falling next to a high stump is a concern and the conventional some will square the butts to get ride of waste lbs to be hauled.

The reason I have seen this myth perpetuate is due to hazardous tree felling by USFS personnel. They cut with a conventional face cut the vast majority of the time. They cut the conventional high and your angle cut you will be standing straight up to have an easier time reaching your escape. The teaching and reason is that hazardous trees can be lost in the face cut much easier.

 

[RandyMac]

you guys are funny.