Beginner Basic Climbing Equip?

[Canyon Angler]

This should probably be in the Rec Climbing Forum, but it doesn't seem like that gets anywhere near as much traffic from the experts as here.

OK, I'm getting ready to bite the bullet to buy basic climbing gear and wanted to get some advice from you experts on what I need to get. (I need to eventually take some big limbs down in a pecan on the property, or else hire someone if I don't feel comfortable doing it myself.)

Not sure what style of climbing I'll settle on, but from what little I know, I'm thinking I like the split tail or DRT better than SRT...

Anyway, the things on my list so far are:

Buckingham Classic Traverse (1292) saddle
150' of 1/2" Yale XTC Fire rope
Petzl Vertex helmet

What other stuff do you experts recommend I get right off the bat? (I would like to avoid expense where possible, for example on throw lines, etc.) Should I have a (wire core) flipline to use in tandem with a climbing rope like Ekka showed in his video? Should I use the heat-resistant Bee-Line stuff for my Prusik, or is other stuff generally accepted as safe? Finally, what book(s) on climbing would you all recommend?

Thanks for any and all info,

Jeff

 

[masiman]

Lots of stuff to cover in that request!

I won't have many answers for you but I will have a lot of questions to help you figure out where your limits are and what you should consider before buying.

1) Do you have rope and/or knot experience?
If not, "Tree Climbing Companion" and "Guide to General Tree Work" are good starters. You will need to read other sources and practice the techniques before putting yourself in danger.

2) How high are the branches?
That 150' of rope may be overkill unless you plan on doing bigger things in the future
a) would you be comfortable at that height if something goes wrong?
For first time work, I would keep it simple and low.

3) What ascent method are you going to use?
You talk about a flipline which makes me wonder if you are considering spikes. I personally would not spike a tree I was planning on keeping around. You can try foot locking or mechanical ascenders.

4) How are you going to set your safety line?
You did not want a throw line but it is more difficult to set a line without it. Then you should consider what damage your line might do to the tree if you do not put some sort of protection between the rope and the tree. If you are not planning on setting a safety, then you are left with spikes, ground entry or ladder.

5) What are you going to use to cut the limb?
A good pruning saw is very nice. Since it is your first time climbing, I'd recommend keeping away from a chainsaw to minimize chances of serious injury.

6) Do you know how and when to prune?
You said big limbs. Learn how to take down the limb in pieces to avoid damage to the living part it is attached too. Learn about your tree and when it is best pruned.

7) How are you going to lower the limb such that it does not get caught in and/or damage lower limbs?
If it is a big limb and you do not have a way to make hand manageable cuts, you may have to think about lowering gear.

8) How much would it cost to have someone?
This equipment can be expensive. Your probably incomplete list is about $250. Add in books, biners, slings, ascenders, flip-line, etc. You can get yourself up to $1k pretty quick. For a one time or once every other year job, this would not be worth your time and money to do yourself.

Wire-cores are meant to give extra protection against accidental cuts from saws. Many climb with rope flip lines. Mechanical vs. Bee-Line vs. Tenex is personal preference for adjusters.

There are ISA videos that are excellent if you have problems understanding what you are reading in the books.

I did not like the Buckingham saddle as much as others. I do not think many on here climb with them. I thought they were large and stiff.

Many good things have been said about the Yale Fire rope.

The Petzl is an excellent helmet and can be used for work on the ground.

You will have to want to do this and somewhat more importantly, you will have to want to learn.

Good Luck!

 

[sawinredneck]

Great posts Dan, you hit a lot of great points!!!!

Get the "Tree climbers compainion" by Jeff Jepsom first and foremost!!!!! READ IT, READ IT, READ IT!!!!!!! Then decide if you want to go further.
I use the Buckingham, it's a fine saddle for my limited use. And I am a rather large build, so the stiffness actually helps me.
I climb on arborplex, it's cheap, it's not the best, but if you do like climbing you can buy a better rope and use this for a bull rope. If you don't like climing, you still have a good bull rope and aren't out much. I think it's around $70 for a 125' hank? You will NEED two double locking carabiners, I use a splittail, mainly because I climb on Arborplex and use a Blakes hitch, it's a litle slick when tied on itself, and I am of a rather large build.
Don't worry about a steel core flip line yet. Get a flipline, yes, when ever cutting/working it's in you're best interest to have two tie in points! Spikes count as one, but as Dan said, I wouldn't recomend them, and they are very pricey for a newbie!!! I don't even have a set!!!
Others will come in with more info, but BE STUPID CAREFULL!!!!!!!

 

[Canyon Angler]

These kind of threads scare the hell out of me.

Yep, kinda reminds me of the posts I see on fishing forums where somebody posts up, saying, "I want to go offshore fishing with my new boat, what equipment and skills should I have, and what advice can you experts offer me?"

and then 50 people pile on, saying "These posts scare the hell outta me" and "You're not experienced enough" and "Your boat is too small" and "If you need to ask, you have no business out there" and "You shouldn't go offshore until you have 700 days of sea service time, and even then you might not be ready, Grasshoppa" and "I suppose I could give you advice, but I can tell from the lack of jargon in your post that you're not One Of Us, so I'm just going to abuse and make fun of you for our amusement" and cr@p like that -- but offer no real advice along the lines of what the original poster asked for. (Like: "What basic equipment should I have?")

I guess we were all beginners once...even the Zen Masters and Canyon Anglers.

 

[masiman]

These kind of threads scare the hell out of me.

Me too. I just always hope that I give enough info to the writer to make them stop and think hard about what they are thinking about doing. Maybe they will look up and think, "yeah, this is nothing like climbing that apple tree as a kid", "I'm going to need to do some serious reading and practicing before I put my life on that line", "I don't have the time to do this", "this is going to take way too much money to do it safely", etc. Success, failure or not trying, Darwin wins .

 

[Canyon Angler]

My posts was an overview of what you are up against and worth double what it cost you.

And your list of recommended reading and equipment was worth its weight in gold!

 

[Adkpk]

The first response to your post was great and asked a lot of questions and made some great recommendations.

Without answers to some of those questions we don't know if you're fishing for tuna, swordfish or maybe going crabbing.

You are scoring some big points today, Tree.

Canyon I started my climbing career here. It's a lot of fun. I don't do big branches and I've been up 20 trees. I bring a cs some times but it's not my favorite. I like the bow saw and that's the level I'm at. But that's me. You won't get all of what you need in the tree till after you do it a couple of times. Nor do I recommend you try. I am up to about $900. and I still have a wish list. I use a Weaver double dee and am very happy with it. Arborplex is a good rope and cheap. Like 'redneck' said you can always retire it to a bull rope if you want something different later. Biners (ball locking for me), micro pulley, throw line and throw bag. Read my thread on getting up there. http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=45735
I wouldn't go anywhere until a pro showed my "the ropes". It's important to have some confidence before you pull yourself up to 30'. Trust me on that. Life takes on a different meaning as gravity pulls on your butt while you reach for a saw to cut something up there. I got on a rec climb but if something isn't available I would look up some pro in the area and show him your stuff before you ascend. But that's me again. Good luck getting it together. Climbing is good.

 

[lxt]

Yep, kinda reminds me of the posts I see on fishing forums where somebody posts up, saying, "I want to go offshore fishing with my new boat, what equipment and skills should I have, and what advice can you experts offer me?"

and then 50 people pile on, saying "These posts scare the hell outta me" and "You're not experienced enough" and "Your boat is too small" and "If you need to ask, you have no business out there" and "You shouldn't go offshore until you have 700 days of sea service time, and even then you might not be ready, Grasshoppa" and "I suppose I could give you advice, but I can tell from the lack of jargon in your post that you're not One Of Us, so I'm just going to abuse and make fun of you for our amusement" and cr@p like that -- but offer no real advice along the lines of what the original poster asked for. (Like: "What basic equipment should I have?")

I guess we were all beginners once...even the Zen Masters and Canyon Anglers.

Mess up fishing with the wrong equipment no big deal!!!! lack of experience fishing... no big deal you`ll still make it home to the family!!

right equipment doing tree care & with lil or no knowledge can get you KILLED!!!

No ones making fun or abusing you, we take our trade/craft seriously, so when someone with no exp. is gonna do the big one we get a lil concerned(for safety sake) think what you will & do what you will but be careful!! alot of experienced guys here listen to them!!! very few are self taught.

LXT............

 

[sawinredneck]

Thanks.

I didn't mean to start a fight, chase Canyon away or set the tone for his thread.


Now let's get back to Canyon's questions!



For you main climbing I suggest a traditional climbing system for you to start with. No split tail and using a prusick hitch for your knot.

I don't think you scared him off, maybe just put his feet back on the ground for a bit.
Canyon, we are not picking on you, it's very hard, and very dangerous!! We just want to make sure you are safe!

Now, you bring up an iteresting point Dan, just wondering why no split tail? I still use a Blakes, but I find it's a lot easier to tie/untie using the split tail?

 

[DonnyO]

Thanks.

For you main climbing I suggest a traditional climbing system for you to start with. No split tail and using a prusick hitch for your knot.

I mostly agree with this but am confused by the prusick hitch part. I would change it to say taughtline.

 

[Adkpk]

Mess up fishing with the wrong equipment no big deal!!!! lack of experience fishing... no big deal you`ll still make it home to the family!!

right equipment doing tree care & with lil or no knowledge can get you KILLED!!!

No ones making fun or abusing you, we take our trade/craft seriously, so when someone with no exp. is gonna do the big one we get a lil concerned(for safety sake) think what you will & do what you will but be careful!! alot of experienced guys here listen to them!!! very few are self taught.

LXT............

I think he was referring to the boat going down.

 

[Adkpk]

I mostly agree with this but am confused by the prusick hitch part. I would change it to say taughtline.

And I thought it was the blakes hitch.

 

[sawinredneck]

I was saving the split tail for the second week of climbing because it's a bit more complicated. Plus climbing with a single rope at the start gives the climber a good feel for bridge length and lets them see and feel how the system works.

I started on the prussic and have never climbed on the taunt line but both are good beginner knots. The Blake's is better than both.

120' of slick line and a 16 oz. throw bag should be had right from the start.

Thank you! I can't dissagree a all!! The problem I had was tying the Blakes on Arborplex and my size, didn't work well!! Even with the split tail I need six turns.

I won't argue the throw bag, I need to get one as well. I still monkey fist my climbing line. I am tight like that.

 

[Canyon Angler]

120' of slick line and a 16 oz. throw bag should be had right from the start.

OK, thanks. By "slick line," do you mean a throwing line like this?

http://store.baileys-online.com/cgi-bin/baileys/1795?mv_session_id=52Jy4Twu&product_sku=21095

That was one thing I was thinking of improvising on, but I guess maybe it's not worth it? Would a 12-oz bag be an OK substitute for 16 oz?

 

[Canyon Angler]

I saw a video Ekka made where he showed how to use a flipline together with an overhead line to climb using your legs (no gaffs) ... it looked pretty cool. Basically, you raise your flipline and grab the trunk with that, then "walk up" with your legs as far as you can, then move your Blake's or Prusik up on the overhead rope to hold you in position, then repeat the routine with the flipline. This looked like a pretty good way to do it. Do many of you use that technique? Do you recommend it? And if so, would you recommend I just make some kind of flipline out of some stiff rope, or buy one pre-made? Does the weight of a wire-core flip line help much? And how long of a flip line should you have?

(Maybe I should just buy and read the book, and then come back with more pointed questions, but I'm trying to buy as much of what I'll need at one time from one vendor, to save $ on shipping costs...)

Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate it.

Jeff

 

[sawinredneck]

That video looks good in theory, and it does work mind you. What the problem is, at least with me being 6'1", I end up with a flip line three times longer than I need and the tag line is always in the way. Start with the basics, learn the hip thrust first, then move on to footlocking. I try not to footlock, it wastes too much energy vs. the hip thrust, at least for me. Everybody is diferent when it comes to styles. As you go you will figure out you're own style.
By a pre made flip line. You get the good gated hooks, and it is RIGHT!!! Don't skimp on you're life lines!!! Once you learn the knots and what works, if you want to make one, cool, but get it right to start with, you have enough obsticales to overcome besides the simple gear.
I never used a steel core line, probably never will, but thats me.

 

[booboo]

FWIW, I tried the combo you're describing exactly...XTC, Beeline splittail and Blakes and it didn't work well at all. The knot either bound up or backed out to the stopper no matter how turns I put on it. Just couldn't find the right combination. I chalked it up the the Beeline not marrying well with the XTC. Both are very good rope, I just don't think they work well together.

For a basic rope used for Drt, I'd go with Safety Blue. Still one of my faves. Relatively cheap, not too stiff or slick and breaks in nicely. Start with either a Blakes or even a taughtline and get used to that before switching to a splittail.

Low and slow is the way to go for starters, hook up with someone with experience, the more the better. Books are great but don't always carry over well to the tree! Be careful, and most of all, have fun!

 

[masiman]

I was saving the split tail for the second week of climbing because it's a bit more complicated. Plus climbing with a single rope at the start gives the climber a good feel for bridge length and lets them see and feel how the system works.

I started on the prussic and have never climbed on the taunt line but both are good beginner knots. The Blake's is better than both.

120' of slick line and a 16 oz. throw bag should be had right from the start.

......A twelve ounce bag would work but usually they are used on lighter throw lines. The problem comes from the bag not being heavy enough to overcome the weight and friction of the heavier line and coming back to the ground. I always carry three throw line and bag systems, two with slick line and 16oz. bags and one with 'zing it' line and a 12 ounce bag. I can hit 70' by hand tossing.....

...By a pre made flip line. You get the good gated hooks, and it is RIGHT!!! Don't skimp on you're life lines!!! Once you learn the knots and what works, if you want to make one, cool, but get it right to start with, you have enough obsticales to overcome besides the simple gear.
I never used a steel core line, probably never will, but thats me.....

I would start on the non split tail system also. It will make you think more about planning your climb. The added danger is that if you need to change your TIP (tie in point), you will need to untie your safety, i.e. more opportunity to make a mistake but also more opportunity to get experience with your knots.

I like the Blake also, but there are better descent hitches. The Blake concentrates wear at the bottom wrap. There are other hitches that apparently spread the wear across the hitch. I currently bring in a figure 8 below my Blakes and use my Blakes as a backup. I really should retie my Blake to something else when I descend but I am not sure yet which one I will use.

I'd get the 180' of slick line. Sometimes I end up needing a triple length, I can't think of the situations but somehow I end up needing a run up, down and up the tree. I'm still new so this might be avoidable . Also with the 180' you can cut off a 40' to 60' piece later for use in the tree and still have a long one for initial setting.

I can throw a 12oz higher but it does get stuck sometimes. The 16 almost never gets stuck. I currently think I can reach about 40 to 50'. Practice makes perfect with throwlines. I have been needing to reach tight shots so I did buy myself a Big Shot. However I still do a couple hand throws before using the Big Shot.

I like the slick line for use in the tree as it is easier to handle. The Zing-it and Fling-it are more efficient but harder for me to control in the bag (pull it all out by accident, put back into the bag). I cut my Slick line into smaller chunks for shorter work.

I started on the wire core because I wanted the extra safety. I am thinking about using part of my ArborMaster as a new flip line when I retire it. I think want to try a 2-in-1 for those trees that have alot of branches. I'll probably still climb with the steel core and use the rope flip to help get me around those sections easier. I just feel comfortable with that bit of extra protection from the steel core. Although I do worry about the eye being held together by a crimp. I may get a Yale steel core that splices the eye. I do like the extra stiffness of the steel core for flipping.

I'd take booboo's advice on the Bee-line/XTC combo. Hopefully a search in Arborist 101 or Commercial can turn up some combo's that people like.

 

[masiman]

Instead of using the figure eight or changing your knot try taking a foot wrap on the tail of your climbing rope. With a foot wrap you can greatly reduce the weight on any friction hitch. In the photo I'm probably taking 60% of the friction off of my friction hitch. As a side note it's a good idea to learn how to footlock the tail for ascending short distances.

Thanks Treeco, I'll try that out, probably this weekend.

I really, really want to be able to do footlocking. I can't understand why I have not gotten it yet. I was always one of the best climbers when we had to do ropes for sports. I used to do a modified foot lock but that was on those large manila lines. Thus far, I have not been able to create enough friction to hold the line between my feet. Granted I have only tried it twice and I was guessing at how to wrap the rope on my foot, but still no joy. I'll try it again this weekend. I even tried with my all terrain shoes, that have less heel and are much more flexible than my boots. I would definitely like to be able to do this so I can do SRT and DdRT without a foot ascender. I have not even tried hip thrusting yet. But hip thrusting looks very tiring.

These are the limitations of learning on your own. You don't have that voice of experience to help you along. You have to search it out or wait for the nuggets to pop up on the internet .

 

[Adkpk]

Thanks Treeco, I'll try that out, probably this weekend.

I really, really want to be able to do footlocking. I can't understand why I have not gotten it yet. I was always one of the best climbers when we had to do ropes for sports. I used to do a modified foot lock but that was on those large manila lines. Thus far, I have not been able to create enough friction to hold the line between my feet. Granted I have only tried it twice and I was guessing at how to wrap the rope on my foot, but still no joy. I'll try it again this weekend. I even tried with my all terrain shoes, that have less heel and are much more flexible than my boots. I would definitely like to be able to do this so I can do SRT and DdRT without a foot ascender. I have not even tried hip thrusting yet. But hip thrusting looks very tiring.

These are the limitations of learning on your own. You don't have that voice of experience to help you along. You have to search it out or wait for the nuggets to pop up on the internet .

I think it is this thread that showed me the mistake I was making at foot locking. Thanks to TM again.