Can This Live Oak be Saved?

[Fireaxman]

Katrina damage. The folks that own it have enjoyed it for 3 generations. It's five and a half feet diameter at the base. The North fork is 2.9 feet dbh, the South fork is 3.8 feet dbh. It lost about a third of it's crown in broken branches. 3 major branches are left in tact, 2 on the South fork and 1 on the North fork.

When I got the hangers out of the top and got the trash cleared out from around the base I found the split in the base. On the East side of the tree it is split open about 1 inch all the way to the ground. On the West side of the tree there is a crack all the way to the ground, but the crack is not opened up.

I don't have a big enough drill to rod the base. Fact is I really don't know what I am doing with rodding and cabling anyway (other than the basics I learned from the ISA recomended practices pamphlet and what I have learned in this forum). I'm a volunteer, not a certified arborist. These folks don't have a lot of money. If I can't do anything to help them, we'll have to cut it down to protect the buildings. But the lady who lives here climbed on this tree as a child, and it is a valuable shade tree to her and her husband. They are willing to risk a few hundred dollars (for materials, my labor is free) and the buildings (they are insured) if enough people in this forum think it's worth the risk and you can give me a few ideas on what needs to be done.

I'm looking at the "Dynamic Non-Invasive Tree Cable" systems in the Sherrill catalog. Any suggestions?

 

[treeseer]

Excellent pics. In the first pic it shows the ends both right and left are very heavy, putting a lot of strain on that defect. I'd definitely lighten them up with little cuts, preserving the shape of the tree.

The cabling BMP's cost $5.--is that what you looked at? It's pretty detailed.

http://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/B...ces-Series---Tree-Support-Systems-P156C4.aspx

I'm not a cabling expert but it looks like that tree could be stabilized for the long run if done right.

 

[Treeman14]

I agree that this tree can be saved. Southern live oaks are tough old birds! I have to strongly object to cutting any more off right now. Remember the concept of the energy bank. That tree took some major withdrawals last year. It's time now to wait until it deposits some reserves back into its account.

That will be a tough one to cable due to the configuration of the leads and the wide spread (typical live oak). I don't mean the actual installation will be difficult, but figuring out the best placement will require some good judgement.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

I would definitely lighten the ends significantly. With a trunk wound like that, you would want to lighten the stress on the crack as much as possible. A cable is probably needed for this particular situation, but I usually try to correct defects with pruning

 

[treeseer]

"I have to strongly object to cutting any more off right now. Remember the concept of the energy bank."

Brett, those ends have a lot of foliage that is newly in the process of being shaded out because of the stem bending since the storm. Removing some out of the middles of those wads with little cuts, preserving the shape of the tree, will make very little withdrawal of resource reserves or reduction in photsynthesis in the leaves.

But it would reduce those lever arms a lot, and close the crack a bit too I bet. :help:

 

[Fireaxman]

The cabling BMP's cost $5.--is that what you looked at? It's pretty detailed.

http://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/B...ces-Series---Tree-Support-Systems-P156C4.aspx

Yes, that is what I have. It's good info, looks doable. Just never did it before.

That will be a tough one to cable due to the configuration of the leads and the wide spread (typical live oak). I don't mean the actual installation will be difficult, but figuring out the best placement will require some good judgement.

One of the things I like about what I am reading in the Sherrill catalog on "Dynamic Non-Invasive" systems is I think I can play trial and error a little bit. I've got some good pulling equipment (a Griphoist that can pull about 2,000 lbs on single part line). I'm thinking I can rig a couple of temporary supports with my bull rope and see how they affect the crack, then relax them onto the "Cobra" or "Tree Save" system after I get the more "permanent" system installed.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Dynamically bracing a defect so that it can move is counter indicated generally. Can rods be placed above crack to give joint back lost leveraged tension? Then, perhaps dynamic brace high? Elastic devices held under constant tension lose elasticity, and also strength degrade faster i think.

Other considerations are area 'histories and heights'. Mostly for wind loading appraisal. Have other wind blocking trees, buildings, structures been removed or installed? Is this crown highest around?

Another consideration/ appraisal would be if other trees touching had been removed, but doesn't look applicable here. But, if they were applicable; removing another tree or structure, or trimming branches from questioned or other tree that gave contact could reduce support that became depended on/ tree wasn't 'exercised' and groan for. In the case of removing a touching tree that supported or even only touched at wind loading to support or just limit movement, a double impact against questioned tree could be made. Tree is question could then have support removed, and at same time get more wind loading; a truly compounding/ pivotal change. High reduction is less important if tree is not highest thing in area; it pays off more if tree takes more high wind loading from being tallest around. calculating wind loading point to pivot at defect as amount of leverage times loading force. In woods codoms, splits would then form to keep tree fairly even with rest, and none get high leveraged wind loading.

Don't let thoughts and prescriptions stop at the ground! i would consider grass removal and any sprinkler removal, keep low/wide branchings to force water delivery out far, to force roots to chase; also to keep low wide stability; like a pyramid martial arts stance. This would give wider leveraged root support, calculating above trunk as leveraged load and below as leveraged support. It would also bind more heavy soil to root mass, and at leveraged points for wider, heavier base for more stability. Mulch, don't mow; give the soil sea all around mulch protection; or the top layers must die off to give it where ground is bare; this protective covering to the rich soil sea below compacts easier and breathes less than mulch by mulch being more crushable and then restore to give dynamic load relief, and also larger aggregate to allow breathing and spread out loads. Also, mulch itself would be lighter protecting device than same amount of soil depth.

Think in 2 perpendicular section halves; high and low; intersected by lean and countering lean(s); making quadrant sections. Low is stability, counter lean weight helps support lean; though that is alterable with wind loading; bottom weight stability is not; especially underground!

Part of leveraged angle is the lean gives higher forces, but also leveraged angle reduces support area; breaking it into compression, tension, and leveraged distance between. Per a given angle, a certain amount of compression distance back from lean will be taken, rest is leveraged distance to tension, and supporting tension itself. So, a wider trunk has more leveraged distance to tension area, from this compression part taken. But, a codom or vertical defect that splits that in half, takes more than half the leveraged distance away to tension, which then needs mroe tension area that also takes away from leveraged distance to tension area. The 2 factors together place higher tension on the tensioned fibers! The compression distance needed in response to the lean angle, does not change as width acoss at supporting trunk is reduced. It is the same; so all loss of width is felt by leverage drop and tension increase; because compression area stays the same. Also, in codom, the loss of coutering lean tothe opposite side is usally lost, placing all support load on stem, without the helping couterbalancing of crown. Thus, the house and all the nutrition etc. that feeds it is now divided against itself; is not one contiguous system to support whole, but only individual members. Further complications come in when bark etc. grow on the inside of codm etc. to further push apart. Thus, this house divided has many more chances of failure!

But as pointed out, Live Oaks are proud and tough, superiour species (but also heavier); this also looks like it has no target?

 

[Fireaxman]

Dynamically bracing a defect so that it can move is counter indicated generally. Can rods be placed above crack to give joint back lost leveraged tension? Then, perhaps dynamic brace high? Elastic devices held under constant tension lose elasticity, and also strength degrade faster i think.?

Rods are probably a good idea, but I don't have anything big enough to install them on this tree, and no experience installing them. I have a good arborist "Coach" with a lot of cabling experience, but he had to go back to New Hampshire and won't be back until June. Hurricane season usually starts in June, but due to an unuaually mild winter the GOM temperature is already 76 degrees. I'm afraid that portends an early season. Ild like to do what I can as soon as possible.

"Dynamic brace high" I can do. Thanks for warning on loss of elasticity and strength. It's pretty close to home and I drive by it at least once a week, so I can monitor it pretty closely.

My "Coach", by e-mail, echoed Treeseer's advice - prune to reduce loading.

Other considerations are area 'histories and heights'. Mostly for wind loading appraisal. Have other wind blocking trees, buildings, structures been removed or installed? Is this crown highest around?

"History" and "Height" are stable. No neighboring trees. Only protection is provided by neighboring, 1 story (Ranch style) home and outbuildings, which have been in place for many years. Yes, this crown is the highest around. Also, no trees touching, currently no crown support.

Don't let thoughts and prescriptions stop at the ground!?

Good thought! I especially like the idea of not watering close to the tree, but making the roots reach out for water. We have a very tight, montmarilonite clay here. Roots really have to struggle for depth. Our best hupe is for Reach.

But, a codom or vertical defect that splits that in half, takes more than half the leveraged distance away to tension, which then needs mroe tension area that also takes away from leveraged distance to tension area. The 2 factors together place higher tension on the tensioned fibers! ... Also, in codom, the loss of coutering lean tothe opposite side is usally lost, placing all support load on stem, without the helping couterbalancing of crown. Thus, the house and all the nutrition etc. that feeds it is now divided against itself; .... Further complications come in when bark etc. grow on the inside of codm etc. to further push apart. Thus, this house divided has many more chances of failure!

Yup. That's what I was afraid of.

Further complications come in when bark etc. grow on the inside of codm etc. to further push apart.

Should I try to pull the crack back together pretty tight to keep the bark from growing into the crack?

But as pointed out, Live Oaks are proud and tough, superiour species (but also heavier); this also looks like it has no target?

Yup. That's our hope. And the closest target is a garage that has been modified into a very highly regarded neighborhood LSU sports den. But it looks like from COG the tree would narrowly miss the LSU den, ... so, bottom line, we'll order the stuff for the cabling. Thanks for the advice. Just didn't want to spend the money for the cabling equipment if you men didn't think it had a chance.

 

[Fireaxman]

Progress Report

We had a thunder storm come through with some 20 to 30 mph winds late last week before I could get back to this and the crack at the base opened up another quarter inch. We pulled it back together a half inch with a grip hoist on a 3 part line, installed some temporary supports (5/8 Bull Rope) and thinned the North fork. Hope it will stay together until I get the Tree Save cable.

 

[clearance]

We had a thunder storm come through with some 20 to 30 mph winds late last week before I could get back to this and the crack at the base opened up another quarter inch. We pulled it back together a half inch with a grip hoist on a 3 part line, installed some temporary supports (5/8 Bull Rope) and thinned the North fork. Hope it will stay together until I get the Tree Save cable.

Put it out of its misery, bullet in the head, end the suffering, you would do it for a run over dog. Or screw around, bill away and leave a pos for some future tree guy to deal with. It is doomed, do the right thing, numbers up, tickets punched, next.

 

[treeseer]

That streetside stem needs reduction very soon. Delaying that work (I know you're not paid well for this, but...).

our dog got run over by a car, right before my eyes. Smashed the bumper, rolled under the drive train and lay there wedged while the driver freaked out. I pulled it loose and it ran back to the house to lay on the deck. I laid a blanket over it and was going to let nature take its course. Dog's a pain, cannot teach it to stay out of the road like our other dog does.

wife said no, it's going to the vet. $220 worth of stitches and tlc later it was home and healthier than ever. That was last year. Wife did the right thing.:biggrinbounce2:



and the moderators did the right thing by keeping onetrackminded tree cutters off the Homeowner forum. :deadhorse:

 

[OTG BOSTON]

you need to drastically reduce the top of that tree. It should be cut back to where your knees are in the second picture.

 

[Fireaxman]

That streetside stem needs reduction very soon. Delaying that work (I know you're not paid well for this, but...).

you need to drastically reduce the top of that tree.

Gotcha. I'll be back in it Saturday morning. Not paid well? Not paid money, but well paid.

 

[clearance]

That streetside stem needs reduction very soon. Delaying that work (I know you're not paid well for this, but...).

our dog got run over by a car, right before my eyes. Smashed the bumper, rolled under the drive train and lay there wedged while the driver freaked out. I pulled it loose and it ran back to the house to lay on the deck. I laid a blanket over it and was going to let nature take its course. Dog's a pain, cannot teach it to stay out of the road like our other dog does.

wife said no, it's going to the vet. $220 worth of stitches and tlc later it was home and healthier than ever. That was last year. Wife did the right thing.:biggrinbounce2

Way to go, forked out a couple of hundred bucks and you still have a retarded dog, awesome. Just like the homeowners you talk into letting you fag out thier trees instead of dealing with them once and finally. They still have a pos tree and have payed for it to stay, and then they or the next owner or insurance company will be paying again.

 

[Rigger]

Fireaxman,

I am glad you chose to come to such a place to seek advice most of the guy's here seem to know what their talking about, and advice I am sure you will get...... lot's of it.
Obviously you and the client would like to save this tree IF it is at all possible, that's understandable going by the pics you provided.

As I am writing this I see you have made a more recent posting:
Gottcha will be back in it Sat.
It appears you have been persueded into a decission to drastically reduceing, something about knee height?
you quoted two comments reccomending this action urgently.

STOP.... The most urgent thing to do (should have been done at the outset) is to go at first light and cordon (tape) off and secure the area. At this time it is a known hazard and liability...... Good. Now slow down, the biggest headache is over.

You are seeking advice, the client entrusts you to do your best preferably by preservation, and finaces are minimal if at all. If it is the lack of finances that determins the fate of the tree then so be it. Personaly I feel if the client really cares and want's the tree then they should cough up the $$$$'s to someone who is qualified AND capable of doing this in a safe manner, that would be long lasting.

Anyhow: this is my way.
I am NOT a certified Arborist... and NEVER will be.
I have however preserved over 100, 500/1000year old oaks in a SAFE and living condition, for ten years the fate of many european national monument trees (denkmalen baum) balanced with my decission. YES i am old school and have the trees 25years later to prove it.
OK cyber police!!! writtin and redin ain't my fortay.... so keep it!!!

First you must consider all possible options open to you, then weigh up the pro's & con's of each, all those options must take into account what the end result would be. Long term safety to traffic and property must be your #1 priority, then look at the preservation factor, is the end result of your actions likely to preserve this tree for a year or two or last 20+years?.
Then comes the third factor looks (can't spell aesthetics), will you be left with an ugly monster coat rack? a piece of modern sculpture? or a half decent tree?

PROPS... in conjunction with thinning, cableing, through rodding, (forget this poncy non-invasive b*&$) get some hardware in this thing, real hardware.
(O'ooooo that should cause a stir).
Now back to the "Props" I am talking pro stuff here, 6" sleeved to 8" oil rig pipe cut to measered lengths should work, strategicly placed concrete pads, inverted "V" formation, painted d/green, etc. etc.
Professionaly done would (does) look very nice, not as expensive as you may think, easy to install, allthough good knowledge and understanding of the physics involved is a must.
I have dabbled around with shock absorbed props and cables, but will save the gory details for another post down the road.

Sorry my mood and writing style is not at it's best tonight, and I really wanted to spend the evening reading posts and profiles, just to get a feel for who's who you see right now the whole tree industry is very divided. I am sure this is enough to rekindle this thread into a roaring fire. In the mean time please don't whack to hard on the tree it's a beauty, and a great opp to show just what tree surgery and preservation is realy all about.

Soon I will be recognized... the hints are there.

 

[Rigger]

Hey I am sorry to come back so soon, but I have just re-read all the posts, this time very carefully and it seems to me that you are indicisive, easily persueded, agrees with everything said, and basically taking on somthing you shouldn't. O'h I give you full marks for effort and trying.

But the way I see it either get the thing down or make a decission to save it proper, I can see a complete hash happening. Some guy's just like to complicate things, what's this about Non-invasive blah... blah... blah, take a look at what you have, a ripped up hazard, and your dillying around with $5 non invasive bungy cords, and whacking off major sections.
Logic must tell you that no matter what you do up top it all sits on a major basal fracture that WILL deteriate over time. With that in mind it stands to reason that the only safe way to preserve long term is to increase the radius of the support structure, like a broken body just pin it together and use crutches!. Of course total removal as Clearence said is also a logical solution.

Talking about where to and not to water...... boy o'h boy if some of these tree guy's were as good at getting the job done as they are writing about it you might get somwhere.

Don't take my comments to personal or to heart, I am just being honest and speaking my mind. Instead of working on the tree maybe you should be working on the client.

 

[treeseer]

Rigger, propping is a very good suggestion. The height does make the design tough, but it could be done. Your idea of securing the area is also very good.

No one here said anything about whacking major portions off of it. 2 suggested removal, but we haven't heard about the risk assessment that went into that decision. Their preferred way of dealing with a tree is "finally", with a basal cut. Most owners see trees as assets so they do not jump on this option right away.

Tip reduction is urgent, but cuts could be made in a way that preserves the natural shape of the tree.

I'd like to see pictures of your preservation work to learn from--got any?

 

[OTG BOSTON]

Fireaxman,


Anyhow: this is my way.
I am NOT a certified Arborist... and NEVER will be.

You know so much about trees but you won't take the time to pass a simple certification exam?? :jester:

In the mean time please don't whack to hard on the tree it's a beauty, and a great opp to show just what tree surgery and preservation is realy all about.

The term "tree surgery" went out with cavity fills, and wound painting.

You keep it old school.....................I'll keep it real.

 

[treeseer]

You know so much about trees but you won't take the time to pass a simple certification exam?? :jester:

The term "tree surgery" went out with cavity fills, and wound painting.
.

OTG I agree about the test; should be a breeze for an experienced pro, and the cost is small.

But "tree surgery" is still an accurate term. If it connotes images of butchery in your brain, that's.....in your brain, not everyone's.

btw it's a myth to say that filling cavities and painting wounds is always wrong, as it is a myth to say the opposite. They may be right less than 1% of the time, but still they have not all "went out"

 

[OTG BOSTON]

I must admit that I was trying to stir the pot. It gets under my skin when non-certified guys try to claim, they don't need it or want it. Get it first then you can call it whatever you want.

I realize that paint and cavity fills have a place. We paint wounds when emergency pruning has to be done on our historic elm trees (to deter those pesky, disease carrying, elm beetles)

Surgery refers to the medical field. Although tree surgery may be an accepted term, Arboriculture is more proper..................I never ment to infer that anyone was a hack.

I guess we'll have to wait to hear back from our friend to see of he put up an erector set, or tried to correct the problem through judicious pruning.