carb and fuel issues

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I stagger because I was having a problem with surging. It was suggested to me that because I am using vacuum from the exhaust to get the initial pull of fuel that I was getting lock on the intake. I started playing around with staggering and found that it fixed my problem. The shape of the ports is something I have been playing with to help with the scavaging.
 
Big difference in those transfer ports. Does dropping the intake port for more area and later intake closing help by itself? or do you have to change the transfers as well?
 
I do not believe you can do it by itself and have much of an effect. The atmopheric presure in the crank will only allow a certain volume of fuel. What I try to do is create a condition when the exhaust escaping creates a vacuum I have a direct flow from the exhaust port to the carburetor to get a "jump" on the fuel/air flow. I am creating a "prescavaging" stage.As the piston moves down and increases presure in the crank case; the volume of fuel/air mix (a constant determined by volume of space and atmopheric presure) is then added to the "early" flow of fuel in the cylinder. I only build woods saw, so I then have to tune the exhaust to hold as much fuel in the cylinder as possible. Back presure is actually a good friend to what I am tying to do, although I do still dual port my mufflers but usually to a lesser degree than most.
 
Klickit, Do you suppose having raised your transfers to the point of having little blowdown time before their opening could lead to flow reversal and exhaust surchargilng of the base compression. Are you cutting away the piston over the exhaust port area? What actually is the surging you refer to. The Lock on the intake you refer to seems strange.
 
Atmospheric equalization: Think of a ball moving around in a box. When the ball moves it creates 2 conditions: pressure and vacuum, causing air movement. The next thing to consider is pressured is like electricity and follows the path of least resistance. As the cylinder is filled with super charged air from the controlled explosion tho following happens, 1 the piston opens the exhaust port and gas starts to escape creating vacuum ( back pressure is actually the result of this vacuum that is created) 2 while flow has been established through the exhaust the first fuel port is opened allowing the fuel to fill the atmospheric void. 3 the piston moving down is creating pressure in the crank case. Tuning the exhaust and the timing of the piston are the most important part of this. Just raising ports is OK but getting the desired effect has been tricky. I also play ( as I mentioned earlier) with the skirt length as well as part of my timing. The surging that I was having problems with was I believe ( I can not prove it other than just from experience) caused by back pressure at the carburetor from slightly pressurizing the crank case in the sequencer. The staggering of the ports helped by not creating an instantaneous pressure of vacuum pull but rather a graduated one. Sort of like a soft start on an electric motor. I hope this explains what I am thinking when I put together a saw. Of course there are some other things but the atmospheric pressure idea is what I base my designs on. :Monkey:
 
Maybe you need to incorporate a reed valve system to keep the exhaust from pressurising the crankcase in the sequencer.
 
klickitatsacket said:
I need more fuel. As of right now I am not too lean but do not want to leave it like this. The only idea I can come up with is to run a stricter plate on the carburetor to slow the rate of air. I could use some other ideas or suggestions


You crack me up. You remind me of an old school buddy who raced with me. He often got ahead of himself like you. Always trying for a technical edge but always bogged down by trying to 'find a better way' ahead of his knowledge.

Really, If you were at the experience and techno. point to know about changing ports and sizes and shapes, and changing piston skirt lengths( not to mention you just messed up the rotating mass balance), and crank and carb pressures and vacuums, you wouldn't have to ask the question of your origional thread would you? "run a strictor plate?." I think you mean restrictor?

Sorry, I don't mean to be mean, Just being honest. I do like your fire though.
 
;) Thanks Danman1. It's guys like you that keep me having fun. Oh yeah thanks, for the spilling coriction. Dan, my saws are not the speed demons that maybe you build but they are good work saws. I do not have tons of experience building race saws, but in the last year since I started building saws for others on my own, I have not had a single saw come back under warranty. Actually I have not had one come back for any reason yet. Did I forget to mention that every saw I send out goes out with a warranty. OOPS! You ASSUME too much. You assume that I told you every little detail. I did not have time to go into it nor would I share the little things that I spent countless hours figuring out. Not to mention all the pistons and cylinders I screwed up in the learning process. I actually have a shelf in the shop of pistons and cylinders that are now junk but are of great value to me as I learned each time I did something wrong. I was only explaining the concepts of what I was trying to do. Mostly because I like to talk saws with others who like to talk saws. I also know that every one approaches a puzzle different and maybe some one has a thought I did not consider. Dan I am sure your saws will walk all over mine in a race but hey that's not what I do. An old timer once told me: An arrogant man criticizes but a confident man shares his knowledge with others. I did not take you as a big ol' mean man. I've got thick skin besides I know the end product and it makes me happy. :)
 
It all to easy to easy to tap some keys on the keyboard and make ilusions that one person or another is off the mark in what they are trying to do, but it's a whole different mater to constructively and scientificaly disprove such efforts, or more over to actually find a beter way.

Hey if our ancestors did not try banging rocks or rubbing sticks together until they understood every aspect of the sciences implicated we would likely be still sitting in cold dark caves gnawing on bones. Though there at times still seams to be a bit of bone gnawing going on chez AS.

It takes a bit of out of the box thinking once and a while to make new dicoveries, and even if the discoveries do not appear to be a success, they are, in that kick is willing to share both the good and bad all of which equating another piece of the puzzel.
 
This is what it is all about.
If there were more thinkers like klickitatsacket, then there perhaps it could happen something good.
The chainsaws looks just about the same now as for 25 years ago.
If there is no thoughts of change, nothing will change. Keep it up, I wish I had the mind for it.
 
Kick:
The technical problem solving aside (and beyond me), what is understandable is your youthful spirit of possibilities and your ability to set aside ego and replace it with enjoyment. It's infectious and refreshing.
 
Klickitatsacket,

I didn't intend to convey a put down, or to phase you in your trail and error approach.
I see from the response, my wording was taken as too harsh. You really do remind me of my friend in your approach. He knows I always got a kick out of it, and he would expect me to say something similar to him without being offended, as I wrote to you. My mistake, forgetting I'm on the internet. I apologize.

By the way, YOU made an assumption. I don't race saws, I race cars. ;)
 
sorry to of made an ars of myself. Most of what i have learned is from what I could glean from the local shop techs at Madsen's and Service Saw, also from other techs from the shops I worked at. I would use their designs for customers while I worked for them but from what I gleaned from them, experience, internet and from my buddies who race bikes down in Oregon on the dunes. I have combined a lot of differant stuff in my way of doing things. I have seen things on this sight though that I have never seen else where. Some times I ask questions just to get a new perspective. The opener of this thread was because I really did not want to drill out that carb. I broke my last bit and had to buy new ones and was procrastinating a little I guess. (ended up building a new carb) I was just hoping some one else had a better way or a solution I did not think of.
 
Hey klick...,

I was reading through Jennings's "Two-Stroke Tuner's Handbook" and came across a couple of things I thought were pertinent to your current project (pay attention for the word "symmetry"):<blockquote>"Present motorcycle engines are all scavenged through windows in their cylinder walls, with scavenging air being supplied from their crankcases.&nbsp; This system is beautiful in its simplicity, but it does have serious short-comings:&nbsp; First, there is the relative incapacity of the crankcase as a scavenging-air pump, which prevents even the hope of having excess air to use in clearing the cylinder.&nbsp; Secondly, the use of the piston's motions to open and close (actually, to uncover and cover) the exhaust and transfer ports creates enormous difficulties in a number of areas related to clearing and recharging the cylinder.&nbsp; The low scavenging pressure available makes it absolutely essential that pressure in the cylinder be no more than slightly higher than atmospheric when the transfer ports open, which means that the exhaust phase must begin well in advance of the uncovering of transfer ports.&nbsp; And, because the piston-controlled exhaust timing is necessarily symmetrical, the exhaust port will remain open long after the transfer ports close -- leaving an unobstructed opportunity for the fresh charge to escape the cylinder.&nbsp; Indeed, the charge injected into the cylinder has every reason to escape, as the upward motion of the piston, moving to close the exhaust port and begin the effective compression stroke, is displacing the gases above its crown. &nbsp; Gas pressures always try to equalize, and those in the cylinder can only do that by moving back into the transfer ports, while these are still open, and out the exhaust ports.&nbsp; Thus, it is virtually inevitable that some portion of the fresh charge will be lost into the exhaust system, and that the upward stroke of the piston will also tend to aspirate some of the charge back down in the crankcase."
(p. 106)</blockquote><blockquote>"Perhaps the most valuable bit of information I can supply is that unless you plan to alter fairly radically the speed at which your engine makes its maximum output, there is no need to do anything beyond smoothing the casting flaws out of the transfer ports -- and even that should be approached with some caution.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Because in scavenging efficiency so very much depends on symmetry of flow.&nbsp; Get one transfer port flowing conspicuously better than its mate on the opposite cylinderwall, and while you may have improved the delivery ratio slightly, the scavenging pattern will have been upset and power output will drop.&nbsp; As as matter of fact, I am inclined to think that the upper reaches of the transfer passages should be left entirely alone, unless to remove some conspicuous casting defect.&nbsp; It is in any case extremely difficult to do precise work up near the port window, and almost impossible to raise the port's roof without altering its angle -- which is the wrong thing to be doing."
(p. 116)</blockquote><blockquote>"All present loop-scavanged motorcycle engines follow Dr. Schneurle's original pattern fairly closely, and many -- perhaps most -- are more or less exactly the same:&nbsp; Twin streams of incoming charge emerge from twin transfer ports flanking the exhaust port, and angle back across the piston crown and slightly upward, joining into a single stream at a point approximately two-thirds of the way back from the exhaust port.&nbsp; This stream is deflected upward by the rear cylinderwall, and then it sweeps up to the top of the cylinder to be directed back down the forward cylinderwall -- moving the residual exhaust gases out of the exhaust port as it advances in that direction.&nbsp; There is as you might expect, some turbulence generated by this activity, which is unfortunate because turbulence promotes the very kind of churning and mixing that should be avoided.&nbsp; But the turbulence is minimized when the flow is symmetrical, and there will therefore be less dilution of the fresh charge trapped in the cylinder at exhaust-port closing.&nbsp; Skewing either transfer port to one side, or lifting the upper edge of one slightly higher than the other will badly upset the scavenging pattern."
(p. 118)</blockquote>Glen
 
Glens you are correct again , the most important port is the transfers and you need to watch you donot slow the charge coming into the jug when using a muffler, now when using a pipe it is a totally different ball game for the transfers cause the pipe will help draw the charge threw the transfers
 
Glen thanks. I love it. with one small exception. Exhaust ports were not mentioned at all. This is where a lot of this changes. To quickly lower the presure of the cylinder the exhaust ports must be widened and the muffler must be tuned. Also if enough exhaust can be relieved before the entering of the fresh mix, it will fill the atmospheric presure void. As for the turbulance created I completely agree, but the increase in fuel stuffed into the chamber over comes the short coming of the slightly weeker scavaging. I am printing this out though and putting it in my file. This is good stuff. :blob2:
 
It has already been accomplished, what you are trying to do was and has been tried for along time with limited success, the rule was to change the degrees of angle on the transfer port roof top which has been proven wrong , making the ext.port wider helps but you need to leave enough metal for the piston to ride on or you are going to be breaking the skirts on the piston, but I am sure you knew all this and am just playing around
 

Latest posts

Back
Top