Chainsaw Mill Setup? (I know, I know - not the first to ask, won't be the last)

[Yellowbeard]

Whoops - misread your second post. So, go with the sprocket nose or otherwise would have to run it too loose - got it. But if I /were/ to run a hard nose, how loose and how do I tell? And what are the consequences of running it loose? I am guessing more marks in the wood but would love to know.

Thanks again!

W.C.

 

[flashhole]

If it is too tight it will create excess friction at the tip of the bar and it will get pretty hot. You don't want to smoke a chain. Exactly how loose is something you have to experiment with. Too loose and you run a strong risk of it jumping off the sprocket or bar. Not something I'd want to chance. The sprocket tip is the way to go.

 

[BobL]

My experience with chain tension when milling about 30 odd logs with a 42" hard nose bar was a Goldilocks one. Definitely not tight but not loose either. Too loose and it falls off the bar easier than a sprocket nose. The chain tension just has to be checked a bit more regularly than for a sprocket nose bar. The tricky time to check chain tension is when the bar is still at ambient temp but the chain is hot, ie after a ft or so of cut. If the chain is tensioned correctly at this point and cutting recommenced, when the bar eventually warms up it will expand and tighten the chain. On a hardnose bar the added friction can make enough of a difference to rob a lot of power from the saw and increase B&C wear. Other than this it was not really a problem.

 

[mtngun]

Ok, then, how should I have my milling chain made then? I am happy to hear advice - that's why I asked.

Take any non-safety chain and regrind it to the Malloff grind. Maintain at least a 6 degree raker angle and maybe more. Assuming you have a grinder. Your local saw shop will not have a clue about ripping chain or raker angles.

Bailey's ripping chain is a good place to start but its angles are not optimal for speed.

 

[Yellowbeard]

My experience with chain tension when milling about 30 odd logs with a 42" hard nose bar was a Goldilocks one. Definitely not tight but not loose either. Too loose and it falls off the bar easier than a sprocket nose. The chain tension just has to be checked a bit more regularly than for a sprocket nose bar. The tricky time to check chain tension is when the bar is still at ambient temp but the chain is hot, ie after a ft or so of cut. If the chain is tensioned correctly at this point and cutting recommenced, when the bar eventually warms up it will expand and tighten the chain. On a hardnose bar the added friction can make enough of a difference to rob a lot of power from the saw and increase B&C wear. Other than this it was not really a problem.

So, I am thinking then that an auxiliary oiler is going to be a basic necessity if I am using a hard nose then? Should I drill it at the nose end? If so, where/how? That info about waiting a foot for the chain to heat but what happens after bar expansion is great - thanks.

What I may do is start with the sprocket nose I have for practice and then move toward using the hard nose bars as I gain experience.

Also, I get the Goldilocks thing - almost a bit more of an art than a science, eh?

 

[Yellowbeard]

Take any non-safety chain and regrind it to the Malloff grind. Maintain at least a 6 degree raker angle and maybe more. Assuming you have a grinder. Your local saw shop will not have a clue about ripping chain or raker angles.

Bailey's ripping chain is a good place to start but its angles are not optimal for speed.

While I generally agree that my local shop doesn't have much clue about ripping chain, there is a guy there who was an aircraft mechanic for a while as well as a high school shop teacher, so he tends to know a bit more than one would expect. Is a grinder something I can expect the saw shop to have?

They mentioned that they could not make skip chain for me because they didn't have the equipment, but I am not sure if that's the same thing as what you are describing. I don't know what a typical piece of sharpening equipment looks like in a standard shop (whether it's what you are calling a grinder or if it's something else).

Is a Malloff grind the same as Granberg? I think that's what you're saying here: http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/193938-2.htm but I am not certain of that. I couldn't find Malloff grinds on the web.

In general, I was getting pretty smooth cuts with the setup I was using before (Granberg chain in most cases on a 30-something inch bar using a Magnum 440 in 20" red oak that had been lying on the ground about 18 months). It was taking around 20 minutes to make it from one end of a 10 foot log to the other with that setup. Then I had the saw shop make another chain for me (I had borrowed the setup from a close friend and wanted to send home an extra chain as thank-you). They didn't have Granberg and they couldn't grind skips in the chain (at least, that's what I recall), so I just had them make me a standard chain. I can't remember if I had them sharpen it in any special way, though they did know I was using it for milling. That chain took 12 minutes to make it's first cut, then slowed down SIGNIFICANTLY on cuts thereafter (it seemed like it cut way faster when new, but slowed at a much quicker rate on subsequent cuts than the Granberg).

In all cases, it seemed like the smoothness was similar. I did find that using rails on every cut worked well, not only because my feeling was that they would tend to smooth out the surface (as BobL said in the same thread I referred to above) but also because they gave me a handy surface from which to hang the saw when I started the cut (which is where, in the past, I have had the most planing work to do). I would prefer smooth to fast, I guess, because I will likely use most lumber I make for furniture, so any time I gain in the woods in exchange for rougher cuts will cost me more in the shop on the planer (plus, as BobL pointed out, it may also cost more wood in the long run).

So, given my situation: Alaskan Mill mounted on a (variable length/nose type) bar attached to an 075 power head. I would rather go a little slower and get smoother results as mentioned. I am happy to use a Malloff grind if I can, A: figure out/understand what it is and, B: find someone who can make it for me. While I very much like the idea of sharpening/grinding my own chain, I currently don't want to spend the time/space/money to do so and, also, frankly I have learned enough about myself over the years to wonder if I am ready, at this point in my life, to be meticulous enough to do a proper job of it. Given those facts, I would prefer to pay $5 to have my local shop sharpen chain for me (also, it pays, in my experience, to maintain a good relationship with my local dealer).

I have to say that I am SO grateful to have found this wealth of knowledge and willing help. Thanks.

 

[Yellowbeard]

I will also say that I recall seeing somewhere on this site (though I can't recall where at this point) that when using an 075 you could afford to cut a bit more aggressively given the amount of torque available with that saw. I would only wish to do so if I could get at least as smooth of cuts as I was getting with the setup I mentioned earlier. You can see some of the boards I was cutting (though not in close-up) earlier in this thread. I will say that they were smoother than I might have expected and I think they will plane out fairly easily and without much waste. I just wish I had comparison photos (even for my own memory) of the two cuts made by the two types of chain that I mentioned.

 

[Yellowbeard]

In general I will say that all the cuts I have made look far more like the right hand picture that BobL posted here: http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/193938-2.htm than the left hand one. In other words, essentially zero washboarding of that type.

 

[BobL]

While I generally agree that my local shop doesn't have much clue about ripping chain, there is a guy there who was an aircraft mechanic for a while as well as a high school shop teacher, so he tends to know a bit more than one would expect. Is a grinder something I can expect the saw shop to have?

Yes it is. BTW I know you are a high school teacher and I was also one many moons ago but I don't see that as a criteria for knowing much about chain saws - read on.

They mentioned that they could not make skip chain for me because they didn't have the equipment, but I am not sure if that's the same thing as what you are describing. I don't know what a typical piece of sharpening equipment looks like in a standard shop (whether it's what you are calling a grinder or if it's something else).

Either they don't know much or are just avoiding doing a bit of work. While making up a new skip chain from individual links is a PITA, there is a simpler way and that is to cut or grind off the unwanted cutters. This method significantly limits the type of skip chain that can be made but a simple L-R cutter pair, cut off two cutters, L-R cutter pair type skip chain can be made this way. Maybe it's a softwood thing but found skip did not work for me in Aussie hardwoods. Sure it can be touched up quickly but it also went blunt quickly so that on some long wide cuts I had to remove the mill from the cut and touch up the chain. Regular chain takes longer to sharpen but is does not go blunt as quickly.

Is a Malloff grind the same as Granberg? I think that's what you're saying here: http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/193938-2.htm but I am not certain of that. I couldn't find Malloff grinds on the web.

sort of. I wouldn't worry about malloff or granberg grinds until you get more experience with regular chain.

In general, I was getting pretty smooth cuts with the setup I was using before (Granberg chain in most cases on a 30-something inch bar using a Magnum 440 in 20" red oak that had been lying on the ground about 18 months). It was taking around 20 minutes to make it from one end of a 10 foot log to the other with that setup. Then I had the saw shop make another chain for me (I had borrowed the setup from a close friend and wanted to send home an extra chain as thank-you). They didn't have Granberg and they couldn't grind skips in the chain (at least, that's what I recall), so I just had them make me a standard chain. I can't remember if I had them sharpen it in any special way, though they did know I was using it for milling. That chain took 12 minutes to make it's first cut, then slowed down SIGNIFICANTLY on cuts thereafter (it seemed like it cut way faster when new, but slowed at a much quicker rate on subsequent cuts than the Granberg).

It sounds like your rakers need attention. Even with poorly set rakers a chain will cut when it is first sharpened but then as the cutters loose their bite they will slow right down. If you take and post a close up directly side on photo of a chain cutter and raker I will diagnose if this is a problem.

In all cases, it seemed like the smoothness was similar. I did find that using rails on every cut worked well, not only because my feeling was that they would tend to smooth out the surface (as BobL said in the same thread I referred to above) but also because they gave me a handy surface from which to hang the saw when I started the cut (which is where, in the past, I have had the most planing work to do). I would prefer smooth to fast, I guess, because I will likely use most lumber I make for furniture, so any time I gain in the woods in exchange for rougher cuts will cost me more in the shop on the planer (plus, as BobL pointed out, it may also cost more wood in the long run).

Slow cutting will generally create smooth cuts but slow cutting will eventually become irritating - it is possible to get fast and smooth. The problem with "fast" is that to do this you need shallow Top plate cutting angles and higher raker angles which it is accompanied by more vibe, jerkiness, slamming into cuts etc which need to be avoided if you want a fair finish.

 

[Yellowbeard]

Yes it is. BTW I know you are a high school teacher and I was also one many moons ago but I don't see that as a criteria for knowing much about chain saws - read on.


Either they don't know much or are just avoiding doing a bit of work. While making up a new skip chain from individual links is a PITA, there is a simpler way and that is to cut or grind off the unwanted cutters. This method significantly limits the type of skip chain that can be made but a simple L-R cutter pair, cut off two cutters, L-R cutter pair type skip chain can be made this way. Maybe it's a softwood thing but found skip did not work for me in Aussie hardwoods. Sure it can be touched up quickly but it also went blunt quickly so that on some long wide cuts I had to remove the mill from the cut and touch up the chain. Regular chain takes longer to sharpen but is does not go blunt as quickly.

sort of. I wouldn't worry about malloff or granberg grinds until you get more experience with regular chain.


It sounds like your rakers need attention. Even with poorly set rakers a chain will cut when it is first sharpened but then as the cutters loose their bite they will slow right down. If you take and post a close up directly side on photo of a chain cutter and raker I will diagnose if this is a problem.


Slow cutting will generally create smooth cuts but slow cutting will eventually become irritating - it is possible to get fast and smooth. The problem with "fast" is that to do this you need shallow Top plate cutting angles and higher raker angles which it is accompanied by more vibe, jerkiness, slamming into cuts etc which need to be avoided if you want a fair finish.

First off, let me second the opinion that one doesn't need to be a teacher (or even college educated, etc.) to know stuff. I didn't mean to imply that. I was in construction before I was a teacher and knew a lot of guys who were very wise. My great uncle was one of the smartest men I ever knew (a real jack of all trades) and I don't think he got past 8th grade. Also, I am first to say to my students that it is absolutely NOT the case that one needs a college education to be successful. It was just that, in this particular case, this is an older guy who really seems to pay attention and know what he's doing. I guess the fact that he taught is really kind of incidental; I was just trying to illustrate that he actually did seem to understand my questions and even pointed out things that I didn't know (obviously easy to do, especially on this subject).

Maybe what he said was that he couldn't make the teeth correctly (as in - like the granberg chains I had) but could only grind them off - a lot of the problem is probably my poor memory.

So it sounds to me like you are recommending staring with a full tooth chain and cutting my teeth, as it were, correct? Unfortunately, I can't post a pic of the chain in question right now because it's gone back to my buddy's house in Kansas. However, I can (and will) post a picture if I get the same problem again - thanks for being willing to look at it.

I know that I have a LOT to learn when it comes to chains. I suspect that I am going to have to just do some cutting and see what happens (sort of what you're suggesting, I guess), then go from there.

Thanks!

 

[mtngun]

From the milling sticky at the top of the forum:

Your local saw shop will likely not have a clue how to sharpen to Malloff specs as very few people do, even on this forum, and the grinding wheel has to be modified, which the shop is unlikely to do. At best, the shop will give you a 10 degree grind similar to Woodland Pro milling chain.

I'll have to disagree with BobL about cutting fast and smooth at the same time.

That chain took 12 minutes to make it's first cut, then slowed down SIGNIFICANTLY on cuts thereafter

It sounds like the chain was dull, probably because it hit dirt or something. I typically get 6 - 8 passes before it's time to swap chains. Each pass will be a little slower -- and smoother -- than the previous pass.