Max
ArboristSite Operative
eric_271 said:What do you mean Max?[/QUOTE
While in Rome !
China/Stihl knockoff?
- Thread starter lostone
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Chris J.
Addicted to ArboristSite
We're selling our future, and there is a huge ripple effect. It might sart slowly, and spread slowly, but it is there nonetheless.
Since this is arboristsite: For those of you in the tree care business who don't have a problem with buying imports and don't think they are hurting our future...what happens when jobs are sent overseas and people here have to take a salary cut, are forced to take lessor position, have to give up their home, etc? Even those who "land on their feet" are probably going have a period of economic adjustment. When money gets tight and they change their priorities, where do you think tree care ranks? What happens when you have to lower your bids when tree jobs start becoming scarce? What happens to your employees when raises and/or bonuses stop, and layoffs begin? What happens when workers have to accept lower wages because the job market is tight? What happens when your employees have less disposable income? What happens at the shops when you and your (former) employees spend less money? What happens at the shop when you stop buying new equipment and begin doing more of your own repair work? What happens when those shops cut wages and/or start laying off people? What happens as more employers have to cut wages and/or layoff workers? What happens when those employees/former employess start cutting back on their spending?
We have been, still are, and will continue to be very shortsighted. It is biting us in the azz, and a lot us don't even realize it. For those of you with young children, perhaps you should start the Chinese languages lessons now.
Since this is arboristsite: For those of you in the tree care business who don't have a problem with buying imports and don't think they are hurting our future...what happens when jobs are sent overseas and people here have to take a salary cut, are forced to take lessor position, have to give up their home, etc? Even those who "land on their feet" are probably going have a period of economic adjustment. When money gets tight and they change their priorities, where do you think tree care ranks? What happens when you have to lower your bids when tree jobs start becoming scarce? What happens to your employees when raises and/or bonuses stop, and layoffs begin? What happens when workers have to accept lower wages because the job market is tight? What happens when your employees have less disposable income? What happens at the shops when you and your (former) employees spend less money? What happens at the shop when you stop buying new equipment and begin doing more of your own repair work? What happens when those shops cut wages and/or start laying off people? What happens as more employers have to cut wages and/or layoff workers? What happens when those employees/former employess start cutting back on their spending?
We have been, still are, and will continue to be very shortsighted. It is biting us in the azz, and a lot us don't even realize it. For those of you with young children, perhaps you should start the Chinese languages lessons now.
Max said:eric_271 said:What do you mean Max?[/QUOTE
While in Rome !
Max I coulden't pass that up.
Lobo in china marlboro are 10 yuen a pack. 2 cartons would cost you 1/3 of your monthly earnings.
It will take the threat of our own officials being voted out of office for not enforcing free trade or calling on a trade war for unfair trade practice by china and a few other countries. China can not import like they export because the wage is not there. 600 yuen a month will not pay for the imported goods. If the wage is raised to a respectable level where the chinese could afford the imported goods it is going to be less attractive for our own companies to go overseas and the jobs with them. China has come a long ways but the vast majority are at the minumum wage level. The cost of liveing probly is cheaper for things like food and it has to be when you have that many people to feed. At 600 yuen or 80 dollers a month I dont think they buy that many cars, tv's, airconditioners. The ones that can afford it are still a small minority. In some ways the great wall still stands.
Right now they can't afford stuff...but they will over time.
A few long term issues to analyse:
1) What happens when you "industrialize' 2.5 bilion people? (They want oil&create waste)
2) What about that military technology edge you thought you had? (Gone within a few years. Its what happens when that many smart people get on an even technology plane.) And there are a LOT of very talented folks in both India and China.
3) Whatever manufacturing edge you have goes the way of cheap labor.
4) Ecological mined growth? Not a chance. A a lot more fossel fuels being burned has issues of its own.
Again the very same people who supposedly championed the cause of labor, conservation, ecological responsibility, etc...helped gut all those issues at a world level while holding our industries "feet to the fire" here which even accellerated the industries run for oversea's cover.
Many of those same people will say "good riddance" to our manufacturing. get rid of that terrible "big industry business stuff".
The good news? There are also a lot of good folks over there. Lots. Lets hope ultimately they are better than we are at managing our natural resources and world politics.
A few long term issues to analyse:
1) What happens when you "industrialize' 2.5 bilion people? (They want oil&create waste)
2) What about that military technology edge you thought you had? (Gone within a few years. Its what happens when that many smart people get on an even technology plane.) And there are a LOT of very talented folks in both India and China.
3) Whatever manufacturing edge you have goes the way of cheap labor.
4) Ecological mined growth? Not a chance. A a lot more fossel fuels being burned has issues of its own.
Again the very same people who supposedly championed the cause of labor, conservation, ecological responsibility, etc...helped gut all those issues at a world level while holding our industries "feet to the fire" here which even accellerated the industries run for oversea's cover.
Many of those same people will say "good riddance" to our manufacturing. get rid of that terrible "big industry business stuff".
The good news? There are also a lot of good folks over there. Lots. Lets hope ultimately they are better than we are at managing our natural resources and world politics.
Last edited:
GASoline71
Mr. Nice Guy
lostone said:
'nuff said!
lostone said:
LMAO I guess my railroad years taught me how to derail as well as rerail. Don't think of it being derailed as much as its more like in the sideing while another train goes by.
Lostone I just noticed u started this thread. Sorry for the derailment, I will butt out now, Im pretty blue in the face anyway. On the positive side look at all the veiws and replies that have come from your thread. You should feel proud.
Actually the derailing isnt that bad, I try to bring interesting threads here if I can rather than controversial subjects, but I can see how this one has become that way, but I can see both sides of the arguments brought up. I guess it would be nice to be able to get a hold of a classic piece like the 070 without the problems of it being this way.
Hi eric, weimedog, and Lobo:
Thanks for the topics on China, labor, abuse, hardwork, cheap cost, power govt...etc.
I can see that most you guys are concerned of the situations and know one way or another that China is booming up economically, giving out cheap-labor-cost products as well as junk stuffs. It's true that the government ( which i don't like so much ) is involving itself in many activities, but you also have to see that China is more and more like a world market with players from everywhere. And the govt's problem is to enforce its role as a judge for fair game. There are too many problems though, for the administration. People are beginning to realize'em but, life has to continue.
It's also true that there are factories using kids labor ( I read from papers and saw from tv but never seen with my own eyes ). It's also forbidden but poor guys have to make a living have to make money for the kids schooling so what they could offer to do ? China is a country with the biggest amount of ??? ( smallest number of people with largest social wealth ). Takes time .....
At least what I can do is introducing more investments ( joint ventures and manufacturers ) into China's market, to offer more jobs to my fellow guys and to make better and cheaper goods to other people who need them.
mike from China
11:28
06/08/2005
Thanks for the topics on China, labor, abuse, hardwork, cheap cost, power govt...etc.
I can see that most you guys are concerned of the situations and know one way or another that China is booming up economically, giving out cheap-labor-cost products as well as junk stuffs. It's true that the government ( which i don't like so much ) is involving itself in many activities, but you also have to see that China is more and more like a world market with players from everywhere. And the govt's problem is to enforce its role as a judge for fair game. There are too many problems though, for the administration. People are beginning to realize'em but, life has to continue.
It's also true that there are factories using kids labor ( I read from papers and saw from tv but never seen with my own eyes ). It's also forbidden but poor guys have to make a living have to make money for the kids schooling so what they could offer to do ? China is a country with the biggest amount of ??? ( smallest number of people with largest social wealth ). Takes time .....
At least what I can do is introducing more investments ( joint ventures and manufacturers ) into China's market, to offer more jobs to my fellow guys and to make better and cheaper goods to other people who need them.
mike from China
11:28
06/08/2005
SawTroll
Information Collector
New 070s - made by Stihl
Well, new 070s are still offered for sale in Mexico - probably made by Stihl in Brazil. It could very well be one of those.....max2cam said:
tenacrewoods
ArboristSite Operative
Yugo was made in (hence)Yugo-Slovia, spelling?
Price of unit this is the only thing we have seen on prices on them so far. I didn't check in on them figuring there would be problems trying the get them here anyway.Vman said:
Wooo, interesting thread
I don't want to be political, so I'll just be subjective on this one : When I buy products, of course the price and quality is important. I mean, we all try to be rational, right? But, apart from this cost/efficiency, there's also an emotional aspect. I don't want to buy a chainsaw from China. Not because they are bad, or because they are paying the workers too little, or because they "steal" our jobs (they don't, we give them away), but because I associate chainsaws, and other tools for wood/logging, with big forests in Europe and North America. When I buy a Husqvarna, or a Stihl, I don't just buy a piece of metal and plastic, I buy "history", an experience, an image.
I wouldn't buy Swedish Whisky. Sorry, but that doesn't appeal to me, even if we certainly COULD make good whisky if someone tried, parts of Sweden is similar to Scotland. And I wouldn't buy Scottish Vodka.
I don't buy beer from Asia. Sorry, there are probably many good beers in a huge continent like that, but I want my Belgian Ale or Czech pilz.
If I ever buy a Harley Davidson I want one that is made in the US, at least much of it. I don't want one made in Russia. No offense to Russia, I'm sure there are great motor-cycles there too.
If I win the lottery and buy a Mercedes, I want one that is made in Germany, not one that is made in the same plant that makes Tayushis.
Yes, I'm old fashioned and stubborn in some ways.
When it comes to quality, I'm not wise enough to remember Japanese quality in the 60s and early 70s, but from what I understand they copied the good stuff from the US and Europe, then drove cost down, added enhancments, and improved quality, forcing many industries in the West go sink into the ocean. China and most other Asian countries have so far focused more on cheap labour than on beating the US and Europe with quality, which the Japanese actually did in many cases.
On a personal note, in the 80s I bought a pair of Nikes. They were made in Ireland (then a low cost country by European standards), and the workers, probably women, had low wage, but still decent I guess. On the label they said something like "wash in laundry machine when needed", so I did. The shoes lasted years, and were washed in machine quite often. The shoes were pricey, but in the long run cheap.
Next pair of shoes I bought from Nike were made somewhere in the east, Indonesia perhaps. The workers there probably made 1/10th of the Irish, but the shoes were even more expensive. And couldn't take the washing in the laundry machine, they soon fell into pieces. I'm sure Nike has raised quality in their asian sweat-shops, but, I'll never buy from them again. Rational? Maybe not, but it's emotional, and we all make emotional decisions when we buy stuff. That's how advertising works...
To be a bit more on topic again, I won't buy a chainsaw from China even if it IS half the price. Maybe chain, but rather not. At least not yet. I'd buy a wok frying pan, and other stuff I associate with china, because I'm a bigot in some ways. Tools are "emotional" for me, whereas computer printers aren't. So my printer is chinese. In 30 years time I might change, but in a world that is becoming much more globalized, and boring, I guess I want some things to "remain the same".
In the 80s I was quite successful in boycotting Japanese goods for many years, unless they were "hidden" in electronics of course, but as I got older (=wiser) I learned to appreciate Japanese quality. My stereo, radio, and other japanese stuff from the 80s still live, while more modern stuff from rest of asia often have died on me after just a little while. Maybe there will some day be something called "chinese quality" but there's a long way to go first.
Pardon for this long post, I was waiting for my rice to boil...
I don't want to be political, so I'll just be subjective on this one : When I buy products, of course the price and quality is important. I mean, we all try to be rational, right? But, apart from this cost/efficiency, there's also an emotional aspect. I don't want to buy a chainsaw from China. Not because they are bad, or because they are paying the workers too little, or because they "steal" our jobs (they don't, we give them away), but because I associate chainsaws, and other tools for wood/logging, with big forests in Europe and North America. When I buy a Husqvarna, or a Stihl, I don't just buy a piece of metal and plastic, I buy "history", an experience, an image.
I wouldn't buy Swedish Whisky. Sorry, but that doesn't appeal to me, even if we certainly COULD make good whisky if someone tried, parts of Sweden is similar to Scotland. And I wouldn't buy Scottish Vodka.
I don't buy beer from Asia. Sorry, there are probably many good beers in a huge continent like that, but I want my Belgian Ale or Czech pilz.
If I ever buy a Harley Davidson I want one that is made in the US, at least much of it. I don't want one made in Russia. No offense to Russia, I'm sure there are great motor-cycles there too.
If I win the lottery and buy a Mercedes, I want one that is made in Germany, not one that is made in the same plant that makes Tayushis.
Yes, I'm old fashioned and stubborn in some ways.
When it comes to quality, I'm not wise enough to remember Japanese quality in the 60s and early 70s, but from what I understand they copied the good stuff from the US and Europe, then drove cost down, added enhancments, and improved quality, forcing many industries in the West go sink into the ocean. China and most other Asian countries have so far focused more on cheap labour than on beating the US and Europe with quality, which the Japanese actually did in many cases.
On a personal note, in the 80s I bought a pair of Nikes. They were made in Ireland (then a low cost country by European standards), and the workers, probably women, had low wage, but still decent I guess. On the label they said something like "wash in laundry machine when needed", so I did. The shoes lasted years, and were washed in machine quite often. The shoes were pricey, but in the long run cheap.
Next pair of shoes I bought from Nike were made somewhere in the east, Indonesia perhaps. The workers there probably made 1/10th of the Irish, but the shoes were even more expensive. And couldn't take the washing in the laundry machine, they soon fell into pieces. I'm sure Nike has raised quality in their asian sweat-shops, but, I'll never buy from them again. Rational? Maybe not, but it's emotional, and we all make emotional decisions when we buy stuff. That's how advertising works...
To be a bit more on topic again, I won't buy a chainsaw from China even if it IS half the price. Maybe chain, but rather not. At least not yet. I'd buy a wok frying pan, and other stuff I associate with china, because I'm a bigot in some ways. Tools are "emotional" for me, whereas computer printers aren't. So my printer is chinese. In 30 years time I might change, but in a world that is becoming much more globalized, and boring, I guess I want some things to "remain the same".
In the 80s I was quite successful in boycotting Japanese goods for many years, unless they were "hidden" in electronics of course, but as I got older (=wiser) I learned to appreciate Japanese quality. My stereo, radio, and other japanese stuff from the 80s still live, while more modern stuff from rest of asia often have died on me after just a little while. Maybe there will some day be something called "chinese quality" but there's a long way to go first.
Pardon for this long post, I was waiting for my rice to boil...
mktest Nice post but I noticed you left jonsered and dolmar out of the chainsaw line up?
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