dealing with tree roots and gardens, root barriers
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M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
Your right, I'm opinionated, because I have an opinion.
People come to tree forums to get opinions from a bunch of people that probably will never see the location.
These forums are designed for "general" advice. That's why many tree forums add caution statements.
People need a fairly firm answer to go on. So if they don't pay a pro to come out, then they have to choose an opinion from this forum.
People come to tree forums to get opinions from a bunch of people that probably will never see the location.
These forums are designed for "general" advice. That's why many tree forums add caution statements.
People need a fairly firm answer to go on. So if they don't pay a pro to come out, then they have to choose an opinion from this forum.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
IF people don't give info like size of tree, the info they get is unqualified. We can launch off into 88 tangents or we can press for details that make the opinions useful.
Which is true--ok to dig at dripline to install barriers, or to add compost between exposed buttress roots? We're both right, depending on species size and condition.
By throwing these random unqualified opinions out for them to grab, we make it easier for them not to call a pro and instead do dumb things to their trees. More facts, less fantasy.
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
That post had enough facts.
Unless its a Italian Cypress, I've yet to see a tree that a gardener has not been able to put a root barrier at the dripline.
End of fantasy.
Unless its a Italian Cypress, I've yet to see a tree that a gardener has not been able to put a root barrier at the dripline.
End of fantasy.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
MD, if you put barriers 2' deep at the dripline of all your big oaks and they are fine with it, then either your soils' A and B horizons (and therefore roots) are much deeper in OR or your oaks have very long branches and don't get as big and old as ours do in NC due to excessive cloudage. Maybe they don't want to stay around for long because it's so gloomy in OR
Barriers 2' deep at the dripline of our big oaks growing in our hard clay soils would whack some roots larger than my leg
Fact: the ANSI Costruction Standards call for root preservation for a radius of 1.25'-1.5' per diameter inch on overmature trees. So unless the trunks are really skinny on your old oaks, 2' deep cuts at the dripline are not a good tree care activity. And if this lady can't grow daylilies, she has deeper problems than oak roots.
Barriers 2' deep at the dripline of our big oaks growing in our hard clay soils would whack some roots larger than my leg
Fact: the ANSI Costruction Standards call for root preservation for a radius of 1.25'-1.5' per diameter inch on overmature trees. So unless the trunks are really skinny on your old oaks, 2' deep cuts at the dripline are not a good tree care activity. And if this lady can't grow daylilies, she has deeper problems than oak roots.
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
Unless it was the yard I am landscaping this week (someone should be fined for soil damage like this - worst yet in 15 years) I have not seen roots here that big at drip line.
Most here - a Pin - like 30 year old, are about 50 feet tall, and about 55 feet wide. 30 years here just doesn't produce much root diameter at the drip line area.
Its hard in our area to stick to the letter of the law about trees and roots, because trees grow so fast here. If Portland residents followed the letter of the law, the trees here would run 90% of the gardens, shrubs and lawns out of the area.
Too make it worse, homeowners and even landscape designers really overplant - a huge problem for an area where trees grow so fast, you don't want to tie your horse to a tree.
When I left the golf courses and university campuses to start in business, I almost "blew beets" after about a week of pruning residentially.
It took about 1 month to figure out how to change pruning strategy.
About the only tree that really gets big roots close to the dripline, here, seems to be the Dawn Redwood.
Most here - a Pin - like 30 year old, are about 50 feet tall, and about 55 feet wide. 30 years here just doesn't produce much root diameter at the drip line area.
Its hard in our area to stick to the letter of the law about trees and roots, because trees grow so fast here. If Portland residents followed the letter of the law, the trees here would run 90% of the gardens, shrubs and lawns out of the area.
Too make it worse, homeowners and even landscape designers really overplant - a huge problem for an area where trees grow so fast, you don't want to tie your horse to a tree.
When I left the golf courses and university campuses to start in business, I almost "blew beets" after about a week of pruning residentially.
It took about 1 month to figure out how to change pruning strategy.
About the only tree that really gets big roots close to the dripline, here, seems to be the Dawn Redwood.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
So what do you use for a rule of thumb with very columnar or fastigiate trees? Dripline is not appropriate in these cases, which is why the CRZ is being put forth as a standard.
I imagine that even with your good rainfall, a Quercus robur 'Fastigiata' would have some good sized roots at the dripline.
I imagine that even with your good rainfall, a Quercus robur 'Fastigiata' would have some good sized roots at the dripline.
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
Rule of thumb is the name I hear, and the image in mind of most of that tree after working at 6 golf courses, 2 university campuses, and about 2500 residential tree care contract projects.
This post was Pin Oak.
In someone mentions Columner English Oak, then I think back to all of those I've seen.
Never seen a formula work right here.
A road was cut through deeper here this week, showing the side of a root system on an Austrian Pine.
Its about 45 feet tall, with a 22 foot spread. The smaller roots end about 8' each way. The whole soil profile is showing.
The other roots are going down.
Similar viewing for the Vine Maple, Cascara and other trees.
We have clay soil, but its not a bad clay for the more part.
This post was Pin Oak.
In someone mentions Columner English Oak, then I think back to all of those I've seen.
Never seen a formula work right here.
A road was cut through deeper here this week, showing the side of a root system on an Austrian Pine.
Its about 45 feet tall, with a 22 foot spread. The smaller roots end about 8' each way. The whole soil profile is showing.
The other roots are going down.
Similar viewing for the Vine Maple, Cascara and other trees.
We have clay soil, but its not a bad clay for the more part.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I say CRZ, you speak of dripline. They are both rules of thumb. CRZ is just a better rule of thumb because it can be applied to a very wide range of trees.
In my experaiance, areas with better water resourses will not have as many heavy roots as areas with less the farther out you go. They have a higher, and more consistant, density of finer.
IMO dripline is an outdated model unless dealing with wide spreading trees.
In my experaiance, areas with better water resourses will not have as many heavy roots as areas with less the farther out you go. They have a higher, and more consistant, density of finer.
IMO dripline is an outdated model unless dealing with wide spreading trees.
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
Its interesting how what's outdated for tree professionals is neutralized by what the residential realm considers as the "in" terminoloy.
Some tree services are trying to eliminate the phrase "tree trimming" from their advertising. Yet when professionals set up internet ads based on key words for search engines, the keyword "tree trimming" costs about 60 cents per click, whereas the term "arborist" and "tree service" each start at 5 cents per click. That's based off the popular terminology utilized by homeowners.
It doesn't matter what an arborist wants to be called, the homeowners have already laid down the rules.
What a playing field !!
Some tree services are trying to eliminate the phrase "tree trimming" from their advertising. Yet when professionals set up internet ads based on key words for search engines, the keyword "tree trimming" costs about 60 cents per click, whereas the term "arborist" and "tree service" each start at 5 cents per click. That's based off the popular terminology utilized by homeowners.
It doesn't matter what an arborist wants to be called, the homeowners have already laid down the rules.
What a playing field !!
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
"Trimming" isn't in ANSI vocabulary, so those tree guys are right imo, if they are talking about "pruning" instead. Better yet to talk about cleaning, thinning, raising or reducing, as ANSI does. If some tree companies don't want to remove branches for some reason(?), that's their choice.
The rules change as homeowners learn about the industry. Yes it's slow but the change will be sure as long as professionals keep up with the changes and communicate them.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
"Trimming" isn't in ANSI vocabulary, so those tree guys are right imo, if they are talking about "pruning" instead. Better yet to talk about cleaning, thinning, raising or reducing, as ANSI does. If some tree companies don't want to remove branches for some reason(?), that's their choice.
The rules change as homeowners learn about the industry. Yes it's slow but the change will be sure as long as professionals keep up with the changes and communicate them.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Trim/prune is a parsing problem that IMO should be kept "in house". eg trimming does not take the trees form into concideration, as in ROW and building clearance. Prune is working within the constraints of the trees form and growth patterns. Some think trimming is beneath them.
My argument agains the use of dripline is that in some forms of tress you may cause damage to the root system when trenching.
It is just as easy to tell the client you need to measure the trunk and go out x feet then to say "the canopy stops here, this is where we can dig".
In wide spreading trees the use of CRZ will often put you inside the dripline, thus giveing the gardener more room to "play" with .
My argument agains the use of dripline is that in some forms of tress you may cause damage to the root system when trenching.
It is just as easy to tell the client you need to measure the trunk and go out x feet then to say "the canopy stops here, this is where we can dig".
In wide spreading trees the use of CRZ will often put you inside the dripline, thus giveing the gardener more room to "play" with
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