Drained the boiler , hauled out the stove... I am going gas!

[Haywire Haywood]

I got involved trying to heal up a couple of botched installs...the concept is sound, some equipment is ok, but the designs are wrong. I'll be passing thru KY. in a couple of weeks, Ian...will I need a passport?

No, we gladly accept cash and Visa.

Ian

 

[Maldeney]

Last fall when I installed my boiler I had nearly $12K in the entire system and I figured at that point it would have a pay back of about 3 years. I was spending nearly $3500 in Propane a year so I kinda hadged on the pricing staying even or increasing as it had over the last eight years. So needless to say it made complete sense for me to put the system in, but I also do not have to pay for my firewood nor do I have a bad back (YET!). I guess I would have to think harder about it if either was the case but for me...... I burn wood!

Oh as a side note.... If you have a large enough heat exchanger and furnace to push the hot water needed, the forced air can be very very nice!!! Compared to my propane heat.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Last fall when I installed my boiler I had nearly $12K in the entire system and I figured at that point it would have a pay back of about 3 years. I was spending nearly $3500 in Propane a year so I kinda hadged on the pricing staying even or increasing as it had over the last eight years. So needless to say it made complete sense for me to put the system in, but I also do not have to pay for my firewood nor do I have a bad back (YET!). I guess I would have to think harder about it if either was the case but for me...... I burn wood!

Oh as a side note.... If you have a large enough heat exchanger and furnace to push the hot water needed, the forced air can be very very nice!!! Compared to my propane heat.

The last paragraph especially says it all. So many on here did not put the right size HX in....that's the way of it.

 

[flashy]

I talked to a dealer who has sold well over 100 owb units in the last 3 years. He said several times he delivered and set up a unit for people who hadn't even bought a saw or had a wood supply lined up. These people didn't know what they were getting themselves into This dealer is worried that pretty soon the want ads will be full of ads for like new owb's for sale cheap.

 

[ngzcaz]

I talked to a dealer who has sold well over 100 owb units in the last 3 years. He said several times he delivered and set up a unit for people who hadn't even bought a saw or had a wood supply lined up. These people didn't know what they were getting themselves into This dealer is worried that pretty soon the want ads will be full of ads for like new owb's for sale cheap.

I said that last year before big oil decided they didn't need $ 4.00 a gallon gas. And all it took was a global recession... People who never burned are in for a rude awakening. I'm surprised I haven't seen ads all over the place here in NE Pa. Luckily I'm in for less than 6K. The guy that invents a cheap retrofit cat converter wont have to burn wood anymore. And be praised by Al Gore to boot.

:monkey:

 

[Circle B MN]

Last fall when I installed my boiler I had nearly $12K in the entire system and I figured at that point it would have a pay back of about 3 years. I was spending nearly $3500 in Propane a year so I kinda hadged on the pricing staying even or increasing as it had over the last eight years. So needless to say it made complete sense for me to put the system in, but I also do not have to pay for my firewood nor do I have a bad back (YET!). I guess I would have to think harder about it if either was the case but for me...... I burn wood!

Oh as a side note.... If you have a large enough heat exchanger and furnace to push the hot water needed, the forced air can be very very nice!!! Compared to my propane heat.

There is a very noticable difference with my OWB verses my LP forced air. The LP creates too much moisture in the house, condesates on the inside of the windows, feels cold, and does not blow as hot. The OWB creates no moisture and feels significantly warmer out of the vents. Keeps the Mrs. happy...

 

[Circle B MN]

I talked to a dealer who has sold well over 100 owb units in the last 3 years. He said several times he delivered and set up a unit for people who hadn't even bought a saw or had a wood supply lined up. These people didn't know what they were getting themselves into This dealer is worried that pretty soon the want ads will be full of ads for like new owb's for sale cheap.

There is a guy up the road from me that bought what appears to be a used OWB earlier this year. Installed it right in the middle of a stand of pine trees with low hanging branches over the chimney ( somebody please call Smokey the Bear ), and has what appears to me as less than a cord of pine branch, and rounds, most likely what he cut to fit the OWB in, stacked beside it. I sure hope he does not plan to fire it this year, especially as it is near a well travelled road and it's "smoke dragon" appearance would be really bad for the rest of us.

 

[WetBehindtheEar]

Geothermal thoughts/questions

Hoping not to hijack the thread too much...

We are looking @ a geothermal system in a major upgrade to our home - radiant floor heating in both basement and first floor, added forced air supply to finished attic, etc...

I've got a good college friend who built a home about 5yrs ago and did his own ground-loop excavation (nice to have a brother with a backhoe, huh?) and saw incredible energy savings - he spent probably 10% of the money his neighbors did on heating their homes w/ Natural Gas.

He recommended the installer who did his system (and was independently recommended to us by a different builder). I think the success of a geothermal system depends VERY highly on the installer.

So the big question I have is... What will the Obama Cap & Trade policies mean for our energy bills? Will natural gas cost more per unit than electricity? As it is right now, electric is much less expensive but with Cap & Trade, there is likely a HUGE tax to be put on coal-fired power plants (most of the electricity supplied in the upper midwest is coal-fired. Thus, electricity will be quite a bit more expensive, no?

So with geothermal, your natural gas/propane/heating oil consumption goes to near zero but your electrical use jumps up quite a bit.

BUT!!

You aren't dependent upon a natural gas/LP/fuel oil supplier's whims and you can theoretically get enough photovoltaic (solar panels) production to completely unplug...

I dunno about the rest of "you's guys" but I'd LOVE to stick it to the power company and ask them to take their meter off my house right in the middle of the city.

 

[Maldeney]

I don't see us being able to tell the electric company to go "stick" it any time soon, Unless you have got alot of money to buy the panels......at which point does it really matter.

I have never heard of anybody reducing there cost by up %90 from installing Geo....... I knew it was cheaper just not to that extreme..... I will still stick with my boiler... Wood is free and I CAN tell the Propane People to go STICK it.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

There is a very noticable difference with my OWB verses my LP forced air. The LP creates too much moisture in the house, condesates on the inside of the windows, feels cold, and does not blow as hot. The OWB creates no moisture and feels significantly warmer out of the vents. Keeps the Mrs. happy...

Hmmmm...It shouldn't matter if a forced air furnace is oil/gas, excess humidity can be caused by a house being too tight, or possibly combustion by-products being sucked back into the living space (CO!!)...IMHO, most of us with forced air need more humidity.

I see the same supply air temp difference too...most newer forced air furnaces start the fan a too low of a temp (110-120 d.) and shut the burners down at 150 or so...older units ran up to 190-200 deg. The wood/HX will put out a steady 130 deg. or so, depending on boiler water temp..

 

[Maldeney]

Actually it is not the first time I have heard someone talk about moisture from burning gas. Natural gas (and Propane) have a percentage of moisture that is released during the burning process. Thus if you have a tight house then it could build up. With the heat exchanger and a tight house you will never add more moisture as you are not "adding" any more volume to the home just recycling.

 

[WetBehindtheEar]

Actually it is not the first time I have heard someone talk about moisture from burning gas. Natural gas (and Propane) have a percentage of moisture that is released during the burning process. Thus if you have a tight house then it could build up. With the heat exchanger and a tight house you will never add more moisture as you are not "adding" any more volume to the home just recycling.

The exhaust from LP/Nat Gas is CO2 & H20 - along with CO and some other byproducts I don't know off the top of my head.

My understanding is that a furnace is suppsed to vent those gasses outside - not into the house (otherwise you'd get poisoned even by the CO2). From what I've been told by HVAC and Home remodelers/builders is that MOST of the moisture in homes comes from:

A. "Tight" home without adequate and regular air exchange - it's said an adult human will give off about a gallon of water a day just by breathing.

B. Improperly vented bathroom

C. Whole house humidifier set too high

D. Dryer venting into home instead of out.

I've also heard of cases where there is improper insulation in the roof so snow melts and with poor drainage/bad gutters getting water leaking in down the inside of walls... FUN! (not)

RE: 'sticking it to the man'... Yeah, it's a little impractical but there are some pretty good incentives in this area for PV systems. Some people are suggesting you can get 50% of a system paid for...Although those people were installers of systems. Hmm...

To me, I would be willing to pay quite a bit to be able to 'unplug'. Ya know?

 

[Maldeney]

Yeah you are right I guess the "off-gases" would have to be vented! DUH... I guess I should have thought that one through as I finished my first cup of coffee this morning! Thus the reason for the plenum to act at the HX.


Oh well thanks for the correction.

 

[Dalmatian90]

it's said an adult human will give off about a gallon of water a day just by breathing.

The simple physics of the situation:

Do you pee a gallon less each day then you drink?

Maybe there is a gallon of water in your exhalation, but if that is true it's only because there was a gallon of water in the air your breathed.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Heat output of the human body at rest: 80 BTUH

 

[Dalmatian90]

Heat output of the human body at rest: 80 BTUH

I *think* that's mostly the same way a wood stove does it, too.

2C + 02 --> CO2 is an exothermic reaction. Heat is one of the products of the chemical reaction.

Puts off heat whether it's in a fireplace or in your muscles.

Takes relatively few "food calories" to keep the pump primed and running.

80BTU/h is like 2,400 calories. But we only use about 80 food calories/hour at rest. Given the law of conservation of energy, the other 2,320 calories have to come from somewhere, so it must be the air we're breathing.

Kind of cool this all ties back to the wood burning

 

[Dalmatian90]

Actually...

No I'm double thinking myself and can't figure it out.

You still need the 'C' for carbon from somewhere...like food.

The 80BTU/h for body heat has a bunch of google references that say it's accurate.

So does 80 calories/hour for a body at rest.

But they can't both be true, at least not without some big explanation better then what I just wrote (although I think I'm on the right road).

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Actually...

No I'm double thinking myself and can't figure it out.

You still need the 'C' for carbon from somewhere...like food.

The 80BTU/h for body heat has a bunch of google references that say it's accurate.

So does 80 calories/hour for a body at rest.

But they can't both be true, at least not without some big explanation better then what I just wrote (although I think I'm on the right road).

I found out about this, and other BTUH ratings for various activities whilst I was learning how to do heat loss/heat gain calculations. They become important when sizing HVAC equipment for auditoriums,theaters, arenas, etc.