Enforcing Safety

[outonalimbts]

Here- Here! Yes it is time professionals DEMAND professional ethic!

I feel the OSHA complaint is valid! I think anyone that buys or uses a chainsaw should be REQUIRED to get a license prior to purchasing a saw. A chainsaw is perhaps the most dangerous tool an inexperienced homeowner can buy over the counter. I can't remember how many times I have seen people choppin' a tree from a ladder or without any PPE! You know the insurance companies think that a tree care professional is PRONE to have Personal Injury Claims and they BOOST the rates for this reason.

Screw the people that think that any safety violation should be looked past, as these are the same people that fail to recognize that we are doing the MOST dangerous job in the world! So what that commercial fisherman have their own show on Discovery channel, the run of the mill tree worker is more likely to become a statistic whether they are hurt or killed in the field.

That PPE that they are wearing only protects them, it doesn't prevent an accident. But, with that added protection they are more likely to live through the accident then if they disregard it.

I climb almost every day, I do wear PPE, I get chips in my eyes even though I wear safety glasses, I get hit in the head occassionally it hurts but my helmet protects from it killing me.

One climber I watched last week, grabbed a dead branch and went to throw it on the ground- as it slipped from his bare hand it deposited a 6" long splinter through his hand, he had to decend to get first aid.

I agree with the idea of reporting those that are violating the rules, I am not a rat, but if it will prevent even 1 injury it is worthwhile. On the otherside of the argument, I wouldn't want a fine to be levied- for ignorance, OSHA doesn't play games with the fines- They can shut down a business if they want in just a couple of charges.

I provide all the PPE for my crew- they complain that it is hot, or makes them look like a geek, I don't care. It lowers my insurance, they can wear it or go work for the guys in the pictures!

 

[lego1970]

I agree with you on that. But I don't go down the road checking other driver's license plates, either.

The Romans had a nice phrase to cover the problems you described: "Caveat Emptor". Let the buyer beware. It is, after all, a free market system. Every regulation reduces the freedoms, but promises greater protections. The best balance is somewhere between no regulation and total government control

:agree2:

My Father always told me that "God gave me two ears, two eyes, and only one mouth. Try to use them in that proportion". I'm not always good with that, but I try.

 

[treemandan]

Careful the liberals will call you an angry mob.

They would be about right.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Taco Bell tends to bid out corporate contracts that cover a handfull of stores, and they always go low bid. Which is probably why it was an out of state operator, they may have been doing 100 places in two weeks or some ungodly criteria. They are probably not the owners, just under trained and low skilled. At their paygrade, they should not be running chainsaws.

I know Nels is not one of them, but i have seen some of the people kvetching about reportage also do it about hacks working in there area. Hmmm.

I have been sorely tempted to do the same thing, I do not think unskilled people should be running a saw for hire, at least as an employee.

 

[treemandan]

Taco Bell tends to bid out corporate contracts that cover a handfull of stores, and they always go low bid. Which is probably why it was an out of state operator, they may have been doing 100 places in two weeks or some ungodly criteria. They are probably not the owners, just under trained and low skilled. At their paygrade, they should not be running chainsaws.

I know Nels is not one of them, but i have seen some of the people kvetching about reportage also do it about hacks working in there area. Hmmm.

I have been sorely tempted to do the same thing, I do not think unskilled people should be running a saw for hire, at least as an employee.

here here ya got some jerkoff who thinks he is going to send them kids out and make the money. That ain't right.

 

[dingeryote]

Around here we often take a dim view of others sticking thier friggin Nose where it dosn't belong.
Don't do it.

Those two idiots are working for a dip#### boss...
Big deal.
They are working.

If you're smart, you'll send those pics of the two idiots to the CLIENT along with YOUR bid for the job, and an explanation of the liabilitys they are currently exposed to by contracting with Hacks.

Get smart, and creative. Quality sells.


Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[clearance]

I suggest first starting with the ISA, seeing as how you are a member, and having them hold thier members to the standards they preach. Untill that outfit gets it together to keep any credibility, I think you should leave working people alone.:monkey:

 

[BCMA]

Tree work is dangerous stuff. Yesterday I read in our local newspaper that a worker was injured working for a tree service company. I have been operating in this area for 18 years and have never heard of this company. The article said that he was hit with the top of a tree, breaking numerous bones and severed his spinal cord. They took him to a hospital 300 miles away for specialized help.

Folks, this happens somewhere every day, and almost all of it is preventable.
I have mixed feeling about what I did today, but I still feel I did the right thing. If all of us started practicing proper safety and training, we can reduce the accidents.

BTW, these guys were not working for Taco Bell. TB is across the street from where they were working. They were working for a major commercial complex on about 40 acres. These were trees lining the street and sidewalk.

Reading the replies of this post, I can see that there is a lot of resistance towards safety compliance. It indicates the sad state of the tree care industry.

 

[dingeryote]

Tree work is dangerous stuff. Yesterday I read in our local newspaper that a worker was injured working for a tree service company. I have been operating in this area for 18 years and have never heard of this company. The article said that he was hit with the top of a tree, breaking numerous bones and severed his spinal cord. They took him to a hospital 300 miles away for specialized help.

Folks, this happens somewhere every day, and almost all of it is preventable.
I have mixed feeling about what I did today, but I still feel I did the right thing. If all of us started practicing proper safety and training, we can reduce the accidents.

BTW, these guys were not working for Taco Bell. TB is across the street from where they were working. They were working for a major commercial complex on about 40 acres. These were trees lining the street and sidewalk.

Reading the replies of this post, I can see that there is a lot of resistance towards safety compliance. It indicates the sad state of the tree care industry.

No resistance to "Compliance", but resistance to the objectionable practice of snitching like a little girl to a regulating agency that can and does shut down businesses for even minor infractions and one instance of an employee bieng a dumbass.

Be carefull what you wish for.
OSHA can find your own operation non compliant at any time, even if you think you have your stuff all in one bag.

It's better to educate the clientelle in your area to the liabilitys of hiring hacks and have them change the dynamic with thier wallet.

Lest we have safety police on every corner writing tickets to children for running with scissors.

I have seen the "Safety culture" get so out of hand, that work could not be performed without a waiver from three levels of management and a legal review. It ain't pretty.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[fishercat]

so what.it happens.

Tree work is dangerous stuff. Yesterday I read in our local newspaper that a worker was injured working for a tree service company. I have been operating in this area for 18 years and have never heard of this company. The article said that he was hit with the top of a tree, breaking numerous bones and severed his spinal cord. They took him to a hospital 300 miles away for specialized help.

Folks, this happens somewhere every day, and almost all of it is preventable.
I have mixed feeling about what I did today, but I still feel I did the right thing. If all of us started practicing proper safety and training, we can reduce the accidents.

BTW, these guys were not working for Taco Bell. TB is across the street from where they were working. They were working for a major commercial complex on about 40 acres. These were trees lining the street and sidewalk.

Reading the replies of this post, I can see that there is a lot of resistance towards safety compliance. It indicates the sad state of the tree care industry.

i don't recall anyone asking you to babysit.you are not gonna stop anything.you are gonna start something though.customers are going to have to learn the hard way.a previous poster was talking about firewood.so the customer got cheap.i bet they thought twice the next time they bought it when they remembered back when the watched water boil out the ends of the wood as they froze their asses off.

people are going to be cheap and make stupid decisions.guys are going to start out small without the proper gear and learn the hard way.i do not want to see anyone get hurt but sometimes that is the price some people pay for living in a free country.

i say if you don't like it here,move to Europe where they share your views.

next you're gonna want homeowners banned from getting on a ladder and trimming their own trees.as much as i hate to see it ,it's their tree and their property.it's not my job to babysit them.

i got news for you guys.all this regulation and government intrusion has not made this a better country.quite the contrary.

do your damn job and mind your own business.

 

[fishercat]

oh boy.

Reading the replies of this post, I can see that there is a lot of resistance towards safety compliance. It indicates the sad state of the tree care industry.[/QUOTE]

you got a lot of safety gear but no common sense.stop wasting money on hardhats because you don't have anything between your ears to protect.

 

[Tree Pig]

i don't recall anyone asking you to babysit.you are not gonna stop anything.you are gonna start something though.customers are going to have to learn the hard way.a previous poster was talking about firewood.so the customer got cheap.i bet they thought twice the next time they bought it when they remembered back when the watched water boil out the ends of the wood as they froze their asses off.

people are going to be cheap and make stupid decisions.guys are going to start out small without the proper gear and learn the hard way.i do not want to see anyone get hurt but sometimes that is the price some people pay for living in a free country.

i say if you don't like it here,move to Europe where they share your views.

next you're gonna want homeowners banned from getting on a ladder and trimming their own trees.as much as i hate to see it ,it's their tree and their property.it's not my job to babysit them.

i got news for you guys.all this regulation and government intrusion has not made this a better country.quite the contrary.

do your damn job and mind your own business.

Hell yeah man. I know this isnt an American only forum but this thread is mostly being debated by people from the states.

People seem to forget why we went to war with England in the first place. Too much government and we are heading back down that path.

Watch This Video

 

[fishercat]

it is meant for the states.

Hell yeah man. I know this isnt an American only forum but this thread is mostly being debated by people from the states.

People seem to forget why we went to war with England in the first place. Too much government and we are heading back down that path.

Watch This Video

i assume he lives here.

 

[Blakesmaster]

It's better to educate the clientelle in your area to the liabilitys of hiring hacks and have them change the dynamic with thier wallet.

That's the key right there. Take all the pics of the hacks you want but don't tattle to mommy, use them as a selling point to your customers. Show them a pic of a hack's operation and show them a pic of yours. Let them decide. I personally like the hacks. Yeah, they get the cheapo HO's and they can HAVE them. All the hacks do is make my operation look better. I work PPE into all my sales pitches. It's best when a shady operation sets up right next to our work site and the customers can SEE the difference first hand and realize what they're paying for.

 

[Blakesmaster]

You're always going to have cheap customers who will hire anyone. I don't want those customers. Hell, I used to be one of those guys without insurance or much gear running around doing side jobs for the cheapskates. Ya know how many of those HO's have called me back? None. In the year and a half that we've been insured, legit, wearing our PPE, and charging reasonable rates instead of undercutting everyone's bid I get calls from repeat customers ALL THE TIME and I love it, the job basically sells itself.

 

[blueatlascedar]

No resistance to "Compliance", but resistance to the objectionable practice of snitching like a little girl to a regulating agency that can and does shut down businesses for even minor infractions and one instance of an employee bieng a dumbass.

Be carefull what you wish for.
OSHA can find your own operation non compliant at any time, even if you think you have your stuff all in one bag.

It's better to educate the clientelle in your area to the liabilitys of hiring hacks and have them change the dynamic with thier wallet.

Lest we have safety police on every corner writing tickets to children for running with scissors.

I have seen the "Safety culture" get so out of hand, that work could not be performed without a waiver from three levels of management and a legal review. It ain't pretty.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

I'm trying to see both sides of the proverbial coin here. I hate the hacks and unprofessional lowballers, but I hate big brother in my face too. Several years ago I was up 40-50' thinning a wide spread n. maple and saw a suit standing close by watching me. I didn't pay much mind till I saw him inching his way closer and he had put a bright shiny white hard hat on. As I looked at him intently, he motioned for me to shut my saw off. Then he insisted I come down and speak with him, he as from OSHA. I said to him, it took me a lot of time and energy to get up this tree and you want me to come down before I'm done pruning it? He said, come down now or I'll site you for non compliance. I said can't you speak to one of my men and he said they said you were in charge of this operation. Needless to say I came down and was an unhappy camper and perhaps my attitude was a little poor by this time. He began breaking my balls about not climbing with chaps. I told him, while in a tree chaps weren't needed and when I come down to cut and clean up, I wear them. Sheesh my 2 groundies had them on. Then he said my eye protection wasn't up to standard. I said these puppies are rated to withstand a bb gun fired at them at 15', I'm quite certain they are good enough for treecare (bought from K. Kuemmerling INC). We went back and forth over many little issues and we were found not to be fined but warned on somethings I didn't know were violations. But my point is, I have always placed high emphasis on professionalism, staying safe, obeying Known laws in the industry. I asked him why he wasn't breaking balls with many of the local hacks with no PPE, no comp, no wc ins, etc... His response, cause I'm here with you at the moment. It pissed me off and put me in a bad mood the rest of the day, so this is why I'm mixed on this topic. I want to see the hacks burnt, but don't know how I feel dropping the dime on them to do it. Well nuff said, work safe and keep the profession moving forward.

 

[fishercat]

how can you drop the dime on them?

you all started off in compliance?from day one? i don't believe you.


Osha ain't going after the hacks and joe pick up guys.they don't have enough money and are probably going to be combative.just the way it is.

they never bothered me but they day they do they will have their hands full.i guess i'll be in OSHA jail.

 

[treeseer]

" The pictures were sent to OSHA in our state for enforcement."

My only question is, Did you copy the company owner and the municipality too? Re the serious feedback here, maybe saving OSHA up your sleeve if other levels do not respond may be a better idea...

Why were the trees being raised--so the lawnmowers had a clearer shot at the trunks?

 

[Curlycherry1]

A tornado touched down South of Minneapolis in an old neighborhood this last Wednesday afternoon. Within 2 hours the tree service places were swarming all over the place. Yesterday the city went around and found and fined 12 guys with no insurance or liscense to work in the city. The one city official said a lot more dashed mid job as soon as they saw the city vehicles show up. One even left behind his saw, that has to hurt because it was a decent saw. Some of the services doing the tree work are charging 4-5X what they would normally charge and so the city is trying to protect the people from being charged excessive amounts. They showed one clown with a truck crane reaching over to a ~4' diameter oak resting on a house and the guy was trying to lift way too much of the tree. Stuff like that can cause more damage to the house.

I am torn too about the no insurance or proper taxes and such. It is one thing to help out the little old lady that does not have wadds of money to throw around, but a business hiring hacks is a different ball game. The work is a tax deduction. Its gets passed on as a part of doing business. The business cannot hire regular employees and not pay their SS, worker's comp and not operate without a liscense, so why should his tree service workers be any different?

Rather than fink on them to OSHA I would have ratted them out to the city first and certainly the guy that hired them. Not as much bite and maybe they would get the hint and get legal. The way those guys were dressed they should not be working with saws.

 

[senechal]

2009 and I'd be willing to bet that one in every three owners have yet to read the regulations for themselves. Tree operations is a day to day challenge of managing extreme risk -- If you choose ignorance to the risks and options to mitigate those risks as an owner or foreman, you are multiplying your own risk by every crew member you lead. Never mind Europe or Obama, if you publicly claim yourself as an advocate of skating around regs, you might as well piss all over the grave of the 3 North American tree workers put to an early grave every day.