Female climbers

[John Paul Sanborn]

See how that high school girl is going for you in a couple years when the novelty factor has worn off.... but she'll be gone long before then if she really does have any brains. Must be nice having a female looking up to you for a change though ;-)

Shaun

Not necessarily, but then most people do not stay with their first company anyways. How many of those will be telling people what a jerk Shaun was, back in the day

For me, I am humbled when any bright young mind looks up to me.

 

[Pelorus]

"See how that high school girl is going for you in a couple years when the novelty factor has worn off.... but she'll be gone long before then if she really does have any brains. Must be nice having a female looking up to you for a change though ;-)"


The high school kid wants to pursue arboriculture in college in two years; she is returning to school in the fall for a couple more Grade 12 credits. The turnover rate for groundies in the industry is high enough that I don't get too excited or take it personally when someone makes an exit for greener pastures. Half or more of the tree companies up here seem to be ex-Bartlett employees who quit to start their own businesses.

As to the second sentence: "Must be nice...", well all I can say is that it IS freakin' nice to be able to explain something to somebody once or twice, and not a third, fourth, 17th time. Having to do the thinking for myself PLUS micromanage the donkey has become a total drag, and brings my mood down. I am sure the donkey feels the same way too, but is unable/unwilling to learn anything. Being able to tie a sheetbend and (more or less) run a porta-wrap is inadequate for the amount of time I have invested in trying to teach him knots, tree ID, etc.
I very much doubt he would be able to differentiate between a maple and an ash, or a pine and a spruce.

 

[pdqdl]

There sure is a lot of well formed thoughts and comprehensive understanding of the tree business on display in this thread.

I wish that more dialogues at AS went this well. Perhaps the girls would condescend to participate in more threads and then the boys would act better?

 

[tree md]

Muscle and brawn comes a dime a dozen. Good rope handlers and saw men are not so common. competent climbers who are capable of critical thinking, even less so.

The turn over rate for groundies has been high for me in the past year. I had a couple of guys who had worked under me for years but one took another job which I could not blame him for and the other went off the deep end with alcohol. So I have been going through several groundies in the past year. I have a good one now that has quite a bit of experience. He is very good on ropes and can be trusted to run the big saws (although he cries about it ). Only problem is he is out of shape.

My ideal scenario is to have one seasoned groundy to run my ropes and one or two laborers to drag brush and carry logs. That seems to work out best for me.

Back in the 90's when I was learning the trade and working for larger services they had a similar structure. There was an older guy in his 40's who was a dam good climber but was relegated to working with the younger, greener, up and coming climbers. He had had a serious accident in the past and was physically limited, though he could still climb. His job was to teach the younger climbers, run ropes and make sure they did not damage property or get hurt. He would evaluate when it was time for them to move on to another crew or take over their own crew. We worked a lot of young job corps climbers back then. When you came to work for that outfit you would work for the old hand for awhile then move on and work with climbers on different crews with different skill sets. You might work on the crane crew for a week to a month, then you would work with the technical rigging climber for awhile, then the arborist who would give you a tongue lashing if you attempted to strap on your spikes and look at you like you were a creature from outer space... Then you would work with the bucket crew... Whatever. If you were young like I was they were not about to turn you loose with a half a million in equipment and trust you over million dollar properties. Usually the older climbers were relegated to teaching and bucket duty. I ended up climbing on the secondary crane crew after spending two or three weeks riding around with the owner and climbing while he operated the big crane.

Anyway, on every crew we had an experienced climber, an experienced rope/saw man and a laborer or two.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I have known a handfull of groundmen who are so good at rope-handling that they are worth the same as a good climber. I often refer to them as ground-captain "listen to him, he knows his stuff." Most of them have tried their hand at climbing, but did not take to heights.

Quite often when I work in heavy canopy I will rig up 2-3 lines to control loads coming out over structures. You need enough mass to slide the load through, but cannot just let it bomb out. So I end up using a rig line drift line and a tag. There is this guy in Mequon, Lon Skataboo who can run all three off of a GRCS and a porty. Then grab the but to walk it our, while playing the ropes out with one hand. He has been with the same company for over ten years now.

 

[imagineero]

Quite often when I work in heavy canopy I will rig up 2-3 lines to control loads coming out over structures. You need enough mass to slide the load through, but cannot just let it bomb out. So I end up using a rig line drift line and a tag. There is this guy in Mequon, Lon Skataboo who can run all three off of a GRCS and a porty. Then grab the but to walk it our, while playing the ropes out with one hand. He has been with the same company for over ten years now.

Guys like that are very rare!

I've had a couple of highly skilled groundies over the years too - sometimes they are guys with all the tickets who tried their hand at climbing and couldn't take the heights, but mostly they're guys on their way up the ladder and dont hang around long. I've got one guy who comes and goes... He's truly gifted on a rope which makes my job very easy up in the tree. Having a sense of when to let it run and being able to use momentum can eliminate the need for tag lines pretty often. When you have enough understanding between yourself and your groundie you can usually work out some combination of cuts and rigging that will set the piece in motion in such a way that the momentum will set it down exactly where you want it if the rope is handled right.

Wth my less experienced guys, you end up having to do more rigging work to compensate for their lack of sense. I often end up running at least one of the lines in the tree myself.

Lots of things can make a good groundie. Being a good sawyer, or good on the ropes goes a long way. Being able to do both makes a guy worth good money to me. I pay extra for good workers to try to hang on to them a little longer, but most will end up starting their own show.

As for the high school girl, if she can't really run a saw and isn't very strong, It's hard to guess what exactly makes it a 'real treat' to work with her. She hasn't been in the industry long enough to be a good hand on a rope, and I'm guessing she doesn't get the stuff powered through the chipper in no time. She must be awesome at raking.

Shaun

 

[a sheila]

I agree

There sure is a lot of well formed thoughts and comprehensive understanding of the tree business on display in this thread.

I wish that more dialogues at AS went this well. Perhaps the girls would condescend to participate in more threads and then the boys would act better?

This was fun for me- coming home and sharing thoughts and ideas with all of you awwshucks.....I was impressed with what i read.

 

[a sheila]

just kidding

Guys like that are very rare!

I've had a couple of highly skilled groundies over the years too - sometimes they are guys with all the tickets who tried their hand at climbing and couldn't take the heights, but mostly they're guys on their way up the ladder and dont hang around long. I've got one guy who comes and goes... He's truly gifted on a rope which makes my job very easy up in the tree. Having a sense of when to let it run and being able to use momentum can eliminate the need for tag lines pretty often. When you have enough understanding between yourself and your groundie you can usually work out some combination of cuts and rigging that will set the piece in motion in such a way that the momentum will set it down exactly where you want it if the rope is handled right.

Wth my less experienced guys, you end up having to do more rigging work to compensate for their lack of sense. I often end up running at least one of the lines in the tree myself.

Lots of things can make a good groundie. Being a good sawyer, or good on the ropes goes a long way. Being able to do both makes a guy worth good money to me. I pay extra for good workers to try to hang on to them a little longer, but most will end up starting their own show.

As for the high school girl, if she can't really run a saw and isn't very strong, It's hard to guess what exactly makes it a 'real treat' to work with her. She hasn't been in the industry long enough to be a good hand on a rope, and I'm guessing she doesn't get the stuff powered through the chipper in no time. She must be awesome at raking.

Shaun

Maybe the "treat" goes back to the opening line in this thread- maybe she is simply a treat to watch pulling a rake.
So true about the best workers moving on. Guess this is how it goes but the good pay for good work idea i totally endorse.That just make the difference in haning on to a worker that just may not want all the headaches of being the boss.

 

[Pelorus]

"As for the high school girl, if she can't really run a saw and isn't very strong, It's hard to guess what exactly makes it a 'real treat' to work with her. She hasn't been in the industry long enough to be a good hand on a rope, and I'm guessing she doesn't get the stuff powered through the chipper in no time. She must be awesome at raking."


Um, going by what you wrote, I think it would be fair to say that you and I place different values on an individuals ability to actually process information, and comprehend, and remember stuff. Having worked closely with Eyore (the Donkey) for several years makes me so much more appreciative of a student with an open and receptive mind. As for operating a chainsaw, she has had the requisite courses on safe saw operation (theory and practical), and wears full PPE. Unlike some here, she wasn't born clutching a Stihl, or have one placed in her crib, but such handicaps can be overcome.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Kottonwood]

I am one of the lucky few to have a great groundie. No way I would be where I am today without him. He can run ropes, saws, stumpgrinders, skidsteer, work on equipment, etc. He is polite and can talk with customers. He has a clean license and is a good driver. Only problem with him is he occasionally decides to take a day off without telling me. It is the weirdest thing, every month or so he just won't show for a day or two.

Wondering what you guys consider good pay for a groundie. I am paying him 16, if he didn't blow me off every now and again he'd be making 18.

 

[Tree Pig]

It is the weirdest thing, every month or so he just won't show for a day or two.

Wondering what you guys consider good pay for a groundie. I am paying him 16, if he didn't blow me off every now and again he'd be making 18.

So he is either seeing his probation officer or was in your former line of work also.

 

[imagineero]

Um, going by what you wrote, I think it would be fair to say that you and I place different values on an individuals ability to actually process information, and comprehend, and remember stuff. Having worked closely with Eyore (the Donkey) for several years makes me so much more appreciative of a student with an open and receptive mind. As for operating a chainsaw, she has had the requisite courses on safe saw operation (theory and practical), and wears full PPE. Unlike some here, she wasn't born clutching a Stihl, or have one placed in her crib, but such handicaps can be overcome.

Cheers,
Dave

Hi Dave,
I'd say we're at polar opposites. I would never employ a donkey for several weeks, let along several years... unless he was employed only as a labourer. It sounds like he is your only groundie? If I was stuck with just one groundie then it would have to be a good one. If I was unfortunate enough to get stuck with a retard as my only groundie for several years then I would probably get excited by a high school student of modest skill who showed some interest in the first few weeks of their employment.

There are people out there who love to talk about work, and understand it. Then there are those who simply git 'er done. All the best employees I've ever had have fallen into the latter category.

cheers(make mine a peroni)
Shaun

 

[a sheila]

git'er done vs working and learning

Hi Dave,
I'd say we're at polar opposites. I would never employ a donkey for several weeks, let along several years... unless he was employed only as a labourer. It sounds like he is your only groundie? If I was stuck with just one groundie then it would have to be a good one. If I was unfortunate enough to get stuck with a retard as my only groundie for several years then I would probably get excited by a high school student of modest skill who showed some interest in the first few weeks of their employment.

There are people out there who love to talk about work, and understand it. Then there are those who simply git 'er done. All the best employees I've ever had have fallen into the latter category.

cheers(make mine a peroni)
Shaun

i realize this is not my discussion but- this last line about the best workers being the git'er done and not talk about it line strikes me as lacking. It is true whether i am on the ground or in a tree and the clock is ticking i am thinking about how long the job was bidded for. With that said, everyday is a day to learn and get better, i will never be done learning. If something goes very well or if there is a glitch i would like to talk about it- to duplicate or to eradicate.
as a very young ( and foolish ) woman i was handed a pair of spikes which i had never been trained to use and only saw used many times and told to get up there and git'er done- no other talk. I like a complete ass strapped them on and went up that tree ( big sugar maple) Well, i did make it up and managed to do the small amount of work needed in that tree and decended exhausted and with inner bicepts that looked like ground beef from all the hugging i did. You guys are both right - there is a time for calm patient talk and understanding and there is a time to git'er done. They are not mutally exclusive.

 

[imagineero]

They aren't mutually exclusive for sure, but the more experience you have, the less you need to discuss in order to git 'er done. A good measure of a groundies skill is how much talking I have to do during the day. When things are going well, generally the only thing I have to say is how the next piece is going to unfold and 'clear'. Before I get a chance to open my big fat mouth and stick my foot in it, a good groundie has already fueled that saw, tied a knot in the lowering line and brought it up to me, untangled that rope etc. Great groundies will actually be a step ahead of me, they know what the next take is going to be, and have already figured if a tag line is needed or not. If so, it comes up with the lowering rope. Or when its time to step up a saw size, the saw materialises.

You don't see a whole lot of talk about the work among true professionals while the job is being done. A bit of ribbing or small talk maybe, the odd tongue in cheek compliment or a bit of sarcasm if things didnt unfold as planned. When people know their job, there isn't so much need to talk about it.

Afterwards at the pub is a whole other story ;-)

Shaun

 

[imagineero]

I'll just throw in there too though, that learning is a good thing. I'm happy to put time into people and teach them skills; it was thanks to others putting in the time that I learnt skills myself. Sometimes its on the job, sometimes it's send home tasks. I've had labourers start without sklls that showed some initiative, and if they keep it up for a few weeks they get a sheet of paper with some knots illustrated and a bit of rope to take home. Manage that, and they got shown how to run a porty. Stick around a little longer, and on a slow day they'll learn how to fuel and start a saw, and make basic cross cuts. A couple have been sent on chainsaw courses, but you got to stick around a while for that. I think training people and passing on knowledge is a responsibility we all have.

Learning is different from working though, and if I had my druthers I'd hire a skilled person over a person who needs to learn given that the two are equally keen to work.

Shaun

 

[Pelorus]

I never got that opportunity to learn from someone when I got started back in The Dark Ages, and for the first couple of years I paid the piper (in pain) for my ignorance. Mebbe that is why I just appreciate having the opportunity (it is only one day a week) to show / teach someone who is young & keen "the ropes".

 

[imagineero]

Wondering what you guys consider good pay for a groundie. I am paying him 16, if he didn't blow me off every now and again he'd be making 18.

I think it's very variable. Over here in aus, most small tree companies (one crew only) go by the day rather than the hour. A 'day' is 8 hours, and generally 7:30-3:30 but if you finish the job early you go home with full pay. This gives the guys some incentive to get the job done, whereas on hourly pay you're really just passing the time. If you're on an hourly rate and work your butt off you can either go home early with less pay, or do extra work on the same day for the same amount of money you would have earned if you just cruised through.

Going rate for a full time groundie over here is about $650/week after tax (about $800 before) which is $130/day or $16.25 if you did work a full 8 hour day. A lot of days end up finishing at lunch or earlier which bumps the hourly rate up considerably, but doesn't improve your weekly wage.

Casual grounding starts at around $150/day for low skilled guys and goes up from there. A first class groundie with no equipment can get up to $250/day ($31.25/hr). The same rules apply for earaly finish. I'll gladly pay $200~$250/day for a first class groundie, it takes so much of the stress out of my day and really reduces my workload. On a crew of 4-6 guys, paying one tope class groundie an extra $100 really doesnt increase the overall cost of the job by that much. The most I've ever paid to a groundie was $350 for the day, but the 'day' was a day and a half (12 hours) and most of the workers could barely move by the end of it.

There is definitely a market (at least in aus) for first rate contract groundies.

Shaun

 

[a sheila]

with all that has been said by all of us about talking, working and such i must admit that when i work with this one guy that i have worked with for almost 29 years,when we are working we do little talking. i spent a lot of time cutting bunches logs to length in the grapples , working both ends of a winch, grounding, climbing, planting trees, spraying and so forth. i dont move in on piece until i make eye contact with him and he nods. he is looking at me and me at him. i count on him not doing anything dumb when i am it and he counts on me not putting myself in harms way when he is moving. since i grounded a long time before i began to climb i can usually anticipate what the climber needs in the tree. i can also relate to what the grounman is dealing with below be when i am up. i just wish that years ago, maybe on that slow day you mentioned, someone took some time and taught me slowly and patiently. i am good at what i do and here intact today because of years on the job. i watched a guy who started to climb the same time i did throughout his career. while he went to school all week i was on the job. for about 2 weeks i was better than him:msp_tongue: then it all changed. he was learning important things all week and coming home to put them to the test. he went on to start his own biz and is doing great things today. oh well.

 

[imagineero]

i watched a guy who started to climb the same time i did throughout his career. while he went to school all week i was on the job. for about 2 weeks i was better than him:msp_tongue: then it all changed. he was learning important things all week and coming home to put them to the test. he went on to start his own biz and is doing great things today. oh well.

+1 on that. With my best groundie, a lot of the communication is hand signals and eye contact, nods.

Never too late to start there.... One of the guys I contract climb for is 54. He's signed up to do the climbing course for the second half of this year! Plenty of great videos out there too, can't reccomend Gerry Beranek's stuff enough. Yeah it costs a few hundred, but I learn't more from those vids than I've learnt on some year long courses.

Stay away from the 'talkers' and find yourself a good climber who gits 'er done every day and see if you cant work with them for a bit. Most are only too happy to spend some time teaching for the right person as shown by pelorus. Two ears, one mouth, and expect to pay your dues in sweat though.

Shaun

 

[tree md]

You know, I hear a lot of the politicians talk about how low tech jobs are going away and people need to educate themselves for higher tech work. A good thing, no doubt but I disagree with a lot of that philosophy. There is always going to be the need for jobs for the entire spectrum of the population. Not everyone is rocket scientist, doctor, engineer material and never will be. Hell, I'm not. People of the entire spectrum need to be able to work and have a job to feel good about themselves and survive. A man/woman needs the opportunity to have a job, make money, buy a meal, purchase something nice for their significant other/children. I don't look down my nose at anyone who works the ground for me. I have respect for anyone who shows up sober and ready to work. Much more so than someone who sits at home figuring out a way to collect a government check. As long as they are honest, willing to learn and show up sober I'll work with them.

I had a young girl ask me for a job while working in Alabama last Summer after the storms. She wasn't trying to make a career out of tree work; she was just trying to earn some honest money to elevate herself from her living situation. It just so happened that when she asked me for work I had just done 5 Pines and needed to get the rakings up so I could move on to the next job. I put her to work raking the yard and left her there so I could move on to the next one. When I came back she hadn't completed the job but was working her ass off to finish. She was hired for clean up duties after that. I can work with a girl like that any day of the week.