Friction Saver (again)

[TheTreeSpyder]

We have talked of this before, and i know i'm in the minority. I've never felt comfortable with the idea of working a 1/2" line around the 1" bight incurred by the 2x 1/2"rings of a Friction Saver, partially from mesmerizing my self so much into never working any loaded line around such a tight bight for years as my own mentor, finding no other coach in the air!

i've called the major rope companies, and the concensus was never to run a 1/2" loaded line around less than a 2" bight; though not one would comment specifically on the Friction Saver when asked.

The overwhelming recoil of successful, mindful users has almost had me change over, i must admit! So today, while i was accidentally showing a loco-l dealer of gear the deal on Sherrill Yellow Jacket that runs out in 10 days (ooops, accidentally showed em some loco shirtz too, 1 size fits sm-all brand); i wandered over to look at the Friction Saver he had on his wall. Wondering if today was the day i might accidentally slip and try one.............. But, wait these rings hid very well behind a 1/2" Arboplex( with Wall Brand on bag, showing use) !! Then there was another model, that were even smaller (from somewhere else)!!!!!!!!

Have you guys gone this far? i know at the Arbo-Master show i have seen real 1/2" ones, and was skittish about them. All of the sudden the 1/2" ones look so much better!

 

[treeclimber165]

Ken,
How sharp of a bend does your rope make where your safety clip or 'biner is attached? Not counting spliced eyes. I just picked up another adjustable lanyard today, with the same safety snaps I've been using for years. The rope attachment rings are a heck of a lot smaller than the rings on the friction savers, and I have never noticed any rope damage from their use.
Just a thought.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Try this one

Long splittail $20
tress cord for distal $14
2 biners $30
1 micropulley $15


unless you splice your own then it is like $10 for the rope parts

The added benefit is that you donot have to pull your line all the way throuth it; just take the pulley off and run it through.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Wow, i tried something like that before but will again JP! i used a 2" pulley and had some problems with webbing i chose 4", ring was smaller than 1/2", but like in your pic didn't reduce to such a sharp bend, Thanx!


"never felt comfortable with the idea of working a 1/2" line around the 1" bight"-kc

"How sharp of a bend does your rope make where your safety clip or 'biner is attached? "-TC

i know a bowline knot or eyesplice doesn't meet this 2"specification (that Samson very well stated not to work one of their lines around in a bight smaller than that loaded), but then the loaded fibres are not being worked and bent around that bight in them either! And bothe a knot and eye lend 2 legs to load rather than 1. So i kinda purposefully slid that word in(working), cuz i think that makes all the diffrence!

Another hesitation for me is the amount i retie in some times to maximize support and utility, then dealing with this device. But the cambium concerns and less friction for moving in towards TIP (Tie In Point)keep calling me from across the other side! Moving away from TIP i kinda like some buffering friction most of the time, i use it to my advantage. On really moving away from my TIP (descending) i kinda like the friction broken up (allowing less heat build up) betwixt anchor and knot, rather than putting all the friction load concentrated and wearing on friction hitch (life line knot). For the same amount of friction in total will be required to control the same amount of azz, any not on anchor must be made up elsewhere (in my experiments i traced line thru feet). Any friction = heat, so instead of heat coming from anchor, dissipating, then some more at knot; this puts the total heat concentrated at knot. Probably extreme, but just a thought.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Spidey,

You're goping to get an ulcer/greay hair/no hair if you keep worrying about the bend ratio in a FC

Do the math. Whatever your body weight is, supported by two lines, less the loss of effeciency going around whatever radius you choose. Now, compare the remaining rope effeciency to what us old timers used to climb on, natural fiber ropes. Even at 5.4k#, the climbing system is WAY stronger than natural fiber rope.

If you want to temper the friction, do a leg/foot wrap on your descent. You could even add a Munter hitch clipped onto a leg loop to take more of the heat.

Get a FC, better yet, build yourself an AFC

Tom

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Well, haaaaaaill yea, if that is the cure for bald hair and grey sign me up!!

Really shocked me to see smaller rings on something i had questioned any way! But reall like JP's rendition, i mean it holds him; that should be good enough safety factor for me!

Actually, part of this stems from reading over time and comparisons to steel cable. Cable needs much more support (sheave tread per cable diameter )and diffrent shape pulley too. If it doesn't get that much support and softness of arc (bight) the cable strands start fatiguing and breaking. i guess i have always pictured in my head a similar fate to strands of nylon loaded so much at so much a bight (arc), which is probably true at some level, perhaps not here. And i have visualized it as internal damage. Just something i came up with assembling diffrent things wading thru stuff at a time whenst there was even a sparser amount of input and materials than we see now. Not even a Webboard anywhere!

 

[murphy4trees]

I Am with JPS on the lingo here. I think it's important to be as clean as possible with our words. False crotch or Mechanical tie in (point)... which is cleaner.. more precise, acurate etc. I was thinking earlier mechanical crotch and it's not a crotch.. So why call it a crotch.
Any other suggestions on this one? I admit... adjustable mechanical tie in point.. is a mouthful.
God Bless All,
Daniel

 

[Stumper]

Spydy, Like you I am concerned about WORKING the rope around a small bight. You and I swapped ideas about this already on your "small and porty" post . Backing up to there and showing some inconsistency on my part ( I treat my climbing line with more respect than my other ropes)----Instead of a small porta wrap have you ever used a figure 8 belay device to lower limbs?

 

[lync]

Question

I made my friction saver from a load rated 36" eye/eye webbing sling with micro pully/ beaner on one side and beaner only on the other side. Place in crotch, open beaners and pully , install climb line and ready to work. My Question is why make the length adjustable. I like having the pully hanging a distance below the crotch, it give lateral mobility to my climbing line. The illustration in the Sherrill catalog for their friction saver illustrates my point, I can work around the tree with out the line wrapping around my anchor point causing additional friction. Is there an advantage to making it adjustable?

 

[murphy4trees]

adjustable

adjustable mechanical tie in point means the friction saver/pulley/'biner/shackle etc is tied on the end of a rope, which is set in a crotch. The adjustment allows the FS to be raised and lowerred, so the climbing line doesn't have to be 2x the hieght of the actual crotch (or 3x the rope for 3:1 MA)
The actual crotch then needs to support close to 2x the wieght.
God Bless All.
Daniel

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i don't think that the load side in fig.8 gets such a sharp bend (if that was what u were leading to).

i set fig.8 and muenter hitch lowering aside a while back because i don't like the corksrewing effect they each have on ropes. Plus, a muenter does grind the rope against itself in a tight bight (on biner). A muenter not on 'biner ie. on spar (incomplete girth hitch), doesn't seem to corksscrew as much, but does sstill grind the rope against itself.

Would it be easier to remotely install/remove one made of webbing or rope? Width of webbing on drag on branch was a lot to fight with 4" webbing i tried before (had a big ring on each side aand i put a 2" pulley on the other side). Are there other considerations between having rope (maybe 5/8") as connection between 2 line supports on device?

"The actual crotch then needs to support close to 2x the wieght.
"

i assume you are talking about DDRT? Ummmmmmmmm, i'm thinkin that if all connections terminate at support anchor and load, then support load = actual load. Would be 2x load = support load, with pulley on support IFF (if and only if -from logical proof class) 1 end was on load, the other supported load independantly (ie. didn't come back to climber) on totally vertical lines (assuming no pulley friction). That would be for any MA 1:1, 2:1, 3:1 etc. whenst each terminated only at climber and support in common DDRT etc. (ie. closed system)

In 'open system' (ie. 1 leg is anchored on ground by groundie, tree etc. whereby the control line is not climber controlled, only one termination at load) then load on support woud be 2xload in 1:1, 1.5xload in 2:1, 1.33 in 3:1, 1.25load in 4:1.

So, in an SRT, there is less anchor load if line is connected to anchor and terminates, rather than a line that goes up to slippery anchor and is tied off at the ground while you climb. That would be close to 2:1, but from previous conversations don't think that is what you were talking about.

This also goes to a nice safety tip that could save ya. Ever grab your line after being thrown in and jerk on it to be sure? Or have a bigger guy do it, i have! Just a safety check, but it will only test at weight applied when grabbing both ends. Tie one end down to something and hang on just one leg of the lifeline (or rigging); this will be almost a 2x load test -angle of lines (if not parallel) - friction of branch, so it is an extra strength test on the support anchor before ya climb!

Also in setting rigging, it will pre-tighten more (on single support anchor) if the control line is pair-allel with the load line. Another 2/1 pull - friction -line slant (line slant being the only thing you can adjust)

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

The A-MTIP gives you versatility, If you want to have it as long as possible, just take it down to the stopper. If you may need to climb back up to it, and full length would put you under a convenient limb...

Then there are the issues with smaller trees.