hand filing

[Kneejerk Bombas]

A and B are outside top plate and side plate angles.
C and D are inside top plate and side plate angles.

 

[Marky Mark]

You guys put alot of effort into Johns picture when it was a joke from 2 years ago. Lamebert happens to be a great round chain filer. As for his race chain well he's been improving with that new 2K grinder he picked up a little while ago. :alien:

 

[Ax-man]

I had to dig this one up, let's see i someome can get this.

What is the chisel angle of the inside top plate angle to the outside top plate angle. It' not rocket science either. I hope I'm saying this right to.

Larry

 

[Tree Machine]

What is the chisel angle of the inside top plate angle to the outside top plate angle.Larry

It's acute one. No, really, I'm not being obtuse.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

You guys put alot of effort into Johns picture when it was a joke from 2 years ago. Lamebert happens to be a great round chain filer. As for his race chain well he's been improving with that new 2K grinder he picked up a little while ago. :alien:

Marky, we're just using the picture because it's a good one. Nothing to do with gypo, other than he takes a good picture.
The goal here is to get folks thinking about what excatly they are doing when they push a round file across a cutter, so they're not just copying the exsisting angles and hoping it's good.

 

[Tree Machine]

Well you got me. As fast as the chain is whizzing around the bar, I'm trying to imagine it in super slow motion, the point where a tooth contacts wood, sits back on it's heel, takes a bite, where and how the fiber bundle gets cut, how a right side tooth leaves the left side kerf just a bit higher so the next left side tooth can meet the wood so correctly prepared by the tooth in front of it. I've always been amazed at how efficiently a sharp chain can glide through even the hardest of the hardwoods. Now I'm in awe.

Then yesterday as I'm filing a tooth to full sharpness, the little Mike Maas pops up on my shoulder, "Look at the gullet, look. No, I mean get your face down there and LOOK CLOSELY. See the parallel striations? That DOES happen with a round file."

Dang Mike. You're right. Now will you help me with adjusting this carb..... hey where'd ya go. Come back here!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Another interesting point is what happens to the chip after it gets cut out. It slips past the underside of the cutter and ends up up against the next cutter. When several chips pile up there, the next cutter can't cut anymore, it just pulls the chips out.
If you had a saw with lots of power, and cut a medium log with a medium bar length, measuring the chip output, and then took the same saw and put a longer bar on it and cut a bigger log, you wouldn't get much more chip output.
The reason is long cuts build up woodchips early in the cycle, and the cutters spend most of their time clearing chips, not cutting.
That's why skip sequence chains work better in big cuts.
This reasoning is why low rakers make for inefficient cutting. You're better off having more cutters doing a little less work each, than having a few cutters making big thick chips and clogging up the others in the row behind it.

 

[Crofter]

Good Stuff Mike!

 

[Tree Machine]

That helps explain why if I use a brand new chain, out of the box, and it cuts fast, and then I bring the rakers down a bit it cuts faster. Clearly there's a point of diminishing returns when the rakers are taken <u>too</u> low. Long ago I took a new chain and completely ground off the rakers altogether. Not such a good idea, especially if you like to use the dogs as a fulcrum.

Thanks for spending your time on this subject. It is appreciated.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

As I mentioned before, what feels fast is often slow. Make sure your conclusions about cutting speed are backed up with some timed cuts.
A second consideration is what size and type of wood, as well as power to bar length combination.
No one set of angles and raker height is best for all situations!
For work saws, you have to find the best set up for the average wood you cut with a given saw.
And finally, an aggressive chain can make running the saw a lot more work, and often the aggressive feeling chains actually cut slower.

 

[Crofter]

Mike, a thought just occurred to my idle mind. Seems like it is about time for someone to find a flaw in something you have said and a bunch more jump on the dogpile to discredit you, Lol! I find interesting your approach to break down the process of what is happening at the micro level. I got teased a bit by a couple of our illustrious members (smiling) for examining the different chips produced by square filed vs round filed chain and the different appearance of the cut surfaces. It makes some peoples puzzlers sore so they call it over-analysing: that kind of exercise has entertained me for a lot of hours. Maybe you can't put it in the bank but it sure beats watching TV.

 

[Locoweed]

These days it doesn't take much to beat watching tv.

 

[d.martin.]

oregon type round ground chain grinder for cutters and depth guage. Two or three in rotation will get you through the day. Sharpen for 36 in bar=5 min ea. cant beat it

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Mike, a thought just occurred to my idle mind. Seems like it is about time for someone to find a flaw in something you have said and a bunch more jump on the dogpile to discredit you, Lol! I find interesting your approach to break down the process of what is happening at the micro level. I got teased a bit by a couple of our illustrious members (smiling) for examining the different chips produced by square filed vs round filed chain and the different appearance of the cut surfaces. It makes some peoples puzzlers sore so they call it over-analysing: that kind of exercise has entertained me for a lot of hours. Maybe you can't put it in the bank but it sure beats watching TV.

I have two saftey nets. Round ground filing won't get the attention of the fearsome four, and comercial climbing keeps them away too.

 

[Tree Machine]

Personally, I like this exercise of overanalyzing, but only because it's for a short, concentrated time. The mental effort we're putting forth can offer you long-lasting benefit.

Deep, mind-stretching consideration causes you to think more during your work day about what you're doing, and why. For me, how sharp the chain is, and how fast it cuts <b>directly affects my income</b>. As well, it affects how hard the saw works, how the bar wears, how much cutting gets done per tank of gas used and how much work gets done by the end of the day.

When you're cutting through wood, you should be entirely focussed and present in what you're doing. Every part of every second you are keenly aware of what is happening. This translates into how you <i>feel</i>. A sharp chain, slicing swiftly, cut after cut, is joy. A not-sharp chain requiring pressure, blowing fine dust or cutting a curve is not joy.

In the tree business, you ARE your tools. How finely tuned they are is an extension of your personal performance. Sharpness equals predictability equals control which equals safety. To truly pursue the outer limits of your technical abilities as an arborist, the sharpness of your chain is a critical element.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Can we come up with an optimal set of angles on our cutter?
Is there an optimal height for our raker?
Do both those angles/measurements change as the cutter is filed back along it's length?

 

[tawilson]

I've been following this thread with interest because I too like to know how things work. Lately, it seems like when cutting, I'm noticing the sound of the engine less and am hearing the noise the chain is making going through the wood. I'm going to pay more attention tomorrow, but it seems like I can hear a chipping or clicking noise. I thought it was the sound of the chain on the bar and sprocket, but maybe I'm hearing the cutters work on the wood. Or am I nuts and should go back into my cave?

 

[clearance]

guys, especially Mike, thanks-this has been very informative. Have been experimenting with raker height for a while, now I will screw around with the almighty hook (hooks).

 

[geofore]

nothing there???

Pretty awesome thread, Guys. I went up to my Grandpa's place this last week. I was rifeling through his garage and he had over a hundred spent 16" chain loops hanging on a wall! I don't think the guy ever threw a used chain away.

I was fingering through the collection, seeing if there were any salvagable chains there. I realized he used .050 gauge, and I use .058, so nothing there for me. All of the chains had teeth that were about halfway through their useful life, and then he retired them. Upon closer inspection I noticed not a single chain had the rakers filed back. I saw a lot of rakers that had the tippy tops rather highly polished and a good number of the chain's teeth were actually sharp, but it all came clear; no one had ever told him about filing down the rakers.

There's 50 chains to practice on if only you'd buy a .050 bar for your saws. That's enough chain to get you good at raker adjustment and sharpening. If for no other reason, to practice hand filing. He was saving them for some guy to come along and get some smarts on chain work by practicing. You're that guy and all you need is to go get an .050 bar to make it happen.

 

[Locoweed]

Opportunity

The amount of interest in this thread by folks who aren't exactly newbies, demonstrates a need for a video showing how to do it correctly.

Seems to me that someone with the equipment could make a video, sell it to members and make a pitch to the various saw makers to include it with their products. (For a small fee of course)