Heat pump water heater?

[Marshy]

I have no way to measure how much electricity just the GE uses and I have no comparison in monthly electric bills I can make between this and a normal electric heater. Maybe this will help?


If you did into this it will tell you how many gallons of water they base this on and if the usage is typical for a family of X people...

 

[TonyM]

I just installed a 50 gallon GE geospring at the end of December. There are 6 of us in the house. I preheat water off my woodstove using an old 40 gallon water heater tank and feed the Geospring in series. I'm able to leave it in Heat Pump mode only and still get 4 to 5 showers in a row this way. If installed in a heated space that stays in the 70sF and it is used in heat pump mode only it is easily 3 times as efficient as an electric storage type heater. Bought mine at Lowes on sale for $900 and took the $300 tax rebate. My electric bill dropped $50-60 in the first month. It will pay for itself before the end of the first year, but we use a lot of hot water. Best case, divide your current electric water heater energy costs by 3. Worst case by 2. That will be the cost of running a heat pump water heater. In the summer it can also help reduce your A/C load.

 

[Mustang71]

That energy sticker is the whole reason I've thought about a heat pump tank cause a regular tank is around 600 a year for the estimated cost. If it is really 2 or 3 more times efficient that would be awesome.

 

[NSMaple1]

I don't think a '2 times' estimation/expectation is out to lunch. That's likely what I would ball-park it.

Plus you get the added dehumidification side-effect. There are quite a few people who stopped running their dehumidifiers in the summer since getting a HPWH - so if you normally run one of those, that's pretty big. Dehumidifiers can eat juice sometimes, it seems.

BTW, the GE Geospring has been discontinued. Think they're still being sold while stock lasts, and GE has said they will continue supporting it. That might lead to some deals being had at places where they still have them. Pretty sure they had gotten the early bugs out & it was a pretty good working unit.

 

[2012outdoorsman]

That energy sticker is the whole reason I've thought about a heat pump tank cause a regular tank is around 600 a year for the estimated cost. If it is really 2 or 3 more times efficient that would be awesome.

So from what I've gathered is that you have an electric water heater currently installed and want to know if replacing it with a heat pump water heater is worth the additional $600. This correct?

If I was in your shoes I probably would say no. It's got benefits that are multipled like dehumidifier and cold air for the summer but if you don't need this then they're not a benefit or saving you money.

If your garage is 50° in the winter it's not going to be efficient at all and might have similar cost to your electric one as heat pumps need heat to generate heat. The colder it is the less efficient they are. There are studies online, try google. This didn't affect me as I don't use mine in the winter when my OWB is on.

I would look to replace it when your current one goes. Is your current one new? Could you sell it to recoup some of the 600$.

My current electric bill is $80 a month. I have a family of 4, the children are under two but I have a baby sitter that stays at my house during the day using electric all day. We do about 1 load of laundry a day too. I have almost all LED lights which helps too.

I'd look at your utilities website. States are forcing utilities to offer incentives for efficient lights and appliances, you pay for these rebates in your electric bill. Some states are even offering to subsidize a large portion of light bulbs. I don't live in VT, but almost all of my LED lights were bought there bc they subsidize 75% of the cost.

 

[TonyM]

During my research I came across a long term study of HPWHs conducted from real world installations across a few different models. The average energy factors ranged from low 2s to high 2s (say 2.2 to 2.8), whereas a typical electric storage water heater is .90-.95. The variances depend primarily on how often the water heater is able to be used in heat pump mode only and weather or not it is installed in a conditioned space with adequate air volume/circulation. Since the heat pump removes heat from the ambient surroundings, they are an ideal solution for someone who heats with wood, especially if the unit can be installed near the wood heating appliance where it can use what might otherwise be waste heat, or at least is a sufficiently heated space. Installation in an unheated basement or garage (or small closet) is not going to yield as much savings.

In my case I have a finished basement with an American Energy System Magnum ZC zero clearance fireplace converted to central heating with an added copper loop for heating water. It is built into the wall between the basement living room and the mechanical/utility room. I installed the HPWH right next to the wood heater in the mechanical room so that that the heat pump fan draws warm air in near the single wall flue pipe running to the chimney and blows the cold air out towards the cold air inlet to the central heating blower. With the added pre-heat tank off from the wood stove this is an ideal application for a HPWH running in heat pump mode only. I'm curious to see if in the summer I may have to switch to Hybrid mode to have sufficient hot water.

So far I am very happy with the result. Originally I was worried the heat pump may be too noisy to be near a living space. So far no complaints as it is about the same level of noise as a refrigerator. My only other concern is longevity of the heat pump, so although I almost never buy extended service plans, in this case I thought the $50 for a five year replacement plan was good insurance (even though the Geospring is being discontinued)

I also do not have gas (LP or natural) available or plumbed at my home. That is another reason I looked into the HPWH and another factor to take into consideration when looking for ways to save on hot water energy costs.

I was also reading another study showing that it is becoming competitive to run a HPWH with electric solar panels compared with heating water directly with solar.

 

[NSMaple1]

There are also incentives in some states for a HPWH. Some guys were getting theirs for next to nothing. Be worth checking out.

 

[Marshy]

@TonyM, I searched the interests and found an independent study (can't recall by who) which studied the efficiency of the HPWH in and if they remained beneficial for the north western USA climate consumers. The summary of the test concluded there was substantial benefits for those in that NW climate and the HPWH would continue to provide a benefit down to 65-66F degrees incoming air.

The one thing to remember for people considering these HPWHs is that if its installed within the living space of your dweling it consumes the living space heat to make hot water (in heat pump mode). If you install it in an area that does not get heated and has an average temperature of 60F then it might not be very beneficial to get one, every situation is different.

Here is mine and the cardboard duct I made so the cold air goes through the partial basement wall.

 

[TonyM]

Marshy, your photo reminded me of another thing to take into consideration with a HPWH, the condensate drain. I still haven't hooked mine up since it is dry in the house in the winter, but I have the hose to run it to my sump when I get a chance to. It dripped a little when we had 40 degree days with steady rain, but otherwise it's been dry. And like you said, since it robs heat from the space it is in, it is important to consider the cost of heating that space in calculating a payback. In my case (and yours by the looks of it) that means throwing an extra log on the fire occasionally.

How long have you had your Geospring? Seemed to be several complaints about the heat pump reliability. I hope those issues have been resolved or were due to lack of maintenance or other user errors. The air intake filter will need to be cleaned occasionally.

 

[Marshy]

I've had mine since May of 2014. No issues at all with mine. I typically clean off the intake screen when I think of it. I've only had the filter alarm go off once since I've owned it and thought it might be a time based alarm to remind the owner to clean it. In the winter I get no condensation at all but I keep the cup there. In spring use a bucket and I can get 2 gallons ever 5 days. I need to upgrade to a 5 gal bucket because some times I forget and get some water on the floor. I highly doubt it would ever exceed 5 gal a week for me... At some point I'm going to take the surround off the upper part of the heat pump and do an inspection and dust cleaning and inspect for corrosion on any coils.

Some of the earlier issues you might read about these units was before the manufacturing came back to the USA. Most of the failure I read about early on where related to crafstmanship of soldering joints and corrosion. There were minor changes to the heat pump design as well. I really think they nailed it so it's a little surprise to me that they decided to discontinue it. Maybe the price as more than the average Joe was willing to accept, idk but I love mine.

Here's a thread I started on the GE a while ago. I don't recall what all I put in there.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/heat-pump-water-heaters-ge-geospring.253591/

 

[Mustang71]

When I'm home the wood furnace is going and it's about 80 down there I've seen it be in the 50s when im not home when it's really cold out. My tank is 10 years old and I do run a dehumidifier in the summer. So it seems like for half the year it won't save me much

 

[NSMaple1]

I think it could save you quite a bit overall, considering you run a dehumidifier in the summer too. In the winter, the absolute worst it would do, is what a new well insulated conventional electric tank would do. But with it being pretty warm down there a lot (most?) of the time, I don't think it would use the elements very much.

I might have one by now myself, but we have no incentives here and they cost more to start with this side of the border. Plus I don't humidify anyway, heat it with wood for half the year, and the one we have runs for pretty cheap the other half.

(No, I'm not a salesman - honest. )

 

[Mustang71]

That's sorta what I was thinking even if it's running more efficiently 70 percent of the time that's still better and the dehumidifier costs me a little bit during the summer so does the window ac. But that's going once I get my tax return I'm gonna go to Lennox and get a coil and condenser. Might as well cool the whole house for the same cost

 

[muddstopper]

I am trying to follow along, but people do things in other areas of the country that isnt normal in my area of the country. I have only seen one heatpump water heater, ever. So they are not very common around here. We also dont have any natural gas lines anywhere around me, but some folks do use propane. While gas heaters might not be the norm here, there are quite a few around. Electric water heaters I would say are pretty much king around here. I realize the heatpump water heaters are supposed to be more energy efficient, but if they are pulling heat out of my house in the wintertime, just to heat my hot water. I got to worry just how much electricity they actually save. I know from experience how much electric a hot water heater can add t a power bill. When I installed a homemade heat exchanger and storage tank to my wood stove, my electric bill dropped $50 a month. I had 4 adults and a baby living here at the time, lots of washing cloths, doing dishes and taking baths. My power company shows on my bill how much power I used this month, last month and last year for the same time period and after about 4 months it was pretty easy to see my wood fired water heater saved me a lot of money. This is great in the winter time when I keep a fire, but with warmer weather, there goes my free hot water. It seems that the heatpump water heaters take the heat out of a room to heat the water and gives off cool air. I would think there should be some way to take advantage of that in the summer time, heat my water and cool the house at the same time. You would never convince me to install a heatpump water heater to heat my hot water only and my wood stove probably does a much better job of heating the water than the heatpump heater ever could. Using the heatpump water heater to heat my water and cool my house in the summer time is something I might consider.

 

[Mustang71]

Right lose the dehumidifier and remove the heat makes sence 5 months of the year... I'm the only one running the wood furnace around here so taking advantage of that for hot water wouldn't do much for me.

 

[Marshy]

Like I said previously, it might not make sense to everyone. It is highly dependent on where you put it, what your climate is, what you are replacing, what fuel source is available, and how important return on investment is. All I can say is it works great for me because my winter heat source is my woodstove and it is 15 feet from it. It replaced an indirect HW tank heated by fuel oil that was approximately $3.75/gal at time of purchase. The cool air it gives off when it's running isn't even noticable with the woodstove running. In the summer time though it probably stays low to mid 70's during the hottest months of the summer. It dehumidifies and conditions the basement. Some times I wish is was up on the main floor near the southern end of the house... I digress... Take a read in that other thread I posted about the GE, there is a lot of technical stuff there that might help you decide if it's worth it for you.

 

[Mustang71]

Yea I'll have to read more info about the actual water heater. In not changing it soon hopefully and I won't switch to propane for hot water. Electric is one stable price and as I saw from my propane prices post there's nothing regulating how much they charge for propane so I use it as little as possible. Either way it seems like it would be more efficient a good part of the year so even saving $100 a year it would pay for it self.

 

[Marshy]

For all you guys following this and were no aware, there are split systems that put the tank inside the house and the heat pump outside the home. The heat pump is sealed and transfers the hear to a closed water loop to heat the inside tank. There are some other good references in this thread also...
https://www.**********/talk/threads/split-system-heat-pump-hot-water-heaters.160402/

working with the mod to get the edit removed...

 

[daleeper]

I have a Geosprings water heater, installed in 2012. I have a meter on it, and I can tell you it cut the water heater bill in half when in heat pump mode in our case. Family of 4, three females, while they were all home, I have it set for the electric elements to kick on as backup. It does recover slow with the heat pump. It makes some noise, and cools the room it is in, it is in a room in the basement that is not used much. Last summer, thought we had a leak in the tank, come to find out the condensate drain tube broke, no part available to fix it, as it is one of the very early models. It is in a spot that will be hard to get to so haven't fixed it yet. Oldest girl has moved away, and youngest in college, so water heat is less than half what it was anyway so the urgency isn't there to fix it. Running on electric elements with no problem.

 

[Marshy]

I have a Geosprings water heater, installed in 2012. I have a meter on it, and I can tell you it cut the water heater bill in half when in heat pump mode in our case. Family of 4, three females, while they were all home, I have it set for the electric elements to kick on as backup. It does recover slow with the heat pump. It makes some noise, and cools the room it is in, it is in a room in the basement that is not used much. Last summer, thought we had a leak in the tank, come to find out the condensate drain tube broke, no part available to fix it, as it is one of the very early models. It is in a spot that will be hard to get to so haven't fixed it yet. Oldest girl has moved away, and youngest in college, so water heat is less than half what it was anyway so the urgency isn't there to fix it. Running on electric elements with no problem.

I've had a little mung or something get into the drain and clog it up a little. I found a little rusty colored water running down the side of the heater. I gave the hole a poke with a wire and got it cleared. Never came back after that... How did your drain break?